Talk:Epic Path

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Bribery and Tips

I'd love to add a section to the Money and Merchants page which details "normal" amounts for bribes and tips, based on the CR of the target, and the complexity of the favor being asked or service being rewarded. Too many times, I've seen players struggle with a "reasonable amount" for these things. I think this would also lead to some fun role-playing when a guard asked for a truly unreasonable bribe, since the players would know full-well that it was not reasonable.

spell save dc’s

Two save types - one strong (10 + half lvl plus caster stat) and one weak (10 + spell lvl + caster stat). This will lgive us another knob for spell power balancing.

Stateless Time

IF we decide to go this route, we need to do a full pass to add 'short rest' and 'long rest' mechanics. The long rest is easy, but we'd need to add stuff to most classes. For example, short rest to remove fatigue for a barbarian, short rest to recharge ranger quarry pool, short rest to allow use of smite again, short rest to do a lot of features.

or we could just worry about stateless time for spells, to start, and implement it as needed for any class features which seem to encourage the "how long has it been" behavior.  I don't feel like any of the examples you gave actually do this (except maybe the barbarian's fatigue); they all explicitly state "during combat" or "at the end of the encounter" or "at the start of an encounter".  These are clear delineations, and I'm not convinced we need to make any further distinctions than that.

correct! sorry, I was unclear. the point I'm trying to make is that we would want to add such mechanics to classes (or racial features, or whatever) so we don't introduce a 'short rest' that only a few people even care about. there should be a reason for most players to be interested in a short rest. maybe you have to take a short rest before you can get an action point for the next encounter, maybe a short rest is required to clear conditions that currently end at the end of the encounter (which we'd have to clarify with an edit pass), maybe a short rest adds temp hitpoints equal to your Con mod if you're a full BAB class, maybe a short rest restores one spell if you are not a 'full tilt' spellcaster, etc, etc, etc. If we're going to have the mechanic, then it should be useful to a wide variety of folks, so its a natural and useful part of the gameplay.

So, I agree that this approach would integrate the concept of a short rest into the game in a compelling enough way to make players care about it (instead of having an orphaned mechanic that only a couple of classes care about).  However, I guess my question is, do we actually want to add this mechanic throughout the game? I thought we didn't, unless it was strictly necessary... My suggestion is we could find another way to approach this without creating / integrating a short rest mechanic.  For example, the Fatigued condition is ended by sitting or lying down for 15 minutes.  This is identical to the idea of a short rest, but doesn't actually create a mechanic for a short rest.


  • rework Epic Inspiration feats (Inspiration, Colossal/Epic/Group/Mass/Excellence) in light of Bard Performance changes.
  • add info on the retraining page for advancing a fluent language to native (cost and time required)
  • change death checks to fort save, dc equal to negative hit point total.
  • three failed saves equals death
  • create a dr type for ‘mundane/non-magic’

  • Rick has requested a price on a ring of greater invisibility
  • Ring of Greater Invisibility - 50,000 gp
  • standard action to activate
  • lasts until end of encounter, or 1 minute, whichever is sooner
  • usable up to 5 times per day
  • consider revisiting the 9 fear status conditions to get rid of "running" as a result.


  • use one or more of their owner's attacks in order to act (one or more times)
  • would allow secondary/tertiary attacks to go as pet's full bab/secondary bab
  • makes balancing pet damage much easier, since it directly subtracts actions/damage from the owner

Haversacks and Cubic Feet Limits

  • suggest allowing haversacks to hold anything, as long as the item(s) don't exceed the haversack's weight limit; ignore bulkiness.
  • we could have more than one model of haversack, since they are basically mandatory magic items anyway; interesting choices.
  • we could say that no character can ever have more than one haversack, or we could just make them expensive enough that having more than one is a bit painful.
  • 'normal' haversack - good weight capacity, low actual weight (5 lbs, regardless of what's in it), only a 3' diameter opening -- nothing bigger than 3' in any dimension can be shoved into it.
  • 'wide-mouthed' haversack - slightly less weight capacity, higher actual weight (10 lbs, regardless of what's in it), no limit to size of things you can shove into it, as long as it doesn't exceed weight capacity of bag.
  • 'quick-draw' haversack - x times per day, draw an item from the sack as a free action (instead of swift). lower weight capacity, but otherwise same as 'normal' haversack.
  • 'kidnapper's' haversack - can keep willing (or helpless) living things in the sack, in a state of stasis. 30 lbs actual weight.
  • 'smuggler's haversack - looks like a shirt, takes up chest slot (isn't slotless). 1 lbs actual weight, but less the capacity than a normal one (half?).
  • I realize this steps on portable holes and potentially bags of holding.
  • never liked portable holes anyway.
  • bags of holding could still be auxiliary storage, and we could add a consumable trait to them, allowing them to be permanently merged with a haversack to increase it's storage capacity somewhat.
  • this increase would (maybe) get blown away if/when the haversack gets upgraded, so it's a short-term means of bridging the gap to the next haversack model.
  • would need to make it more expensive to tack on enough bags of holding to bring the haversack up to the next equivalent weight class.

Player Poisons

  • Use Sleight of Hand to apply poison, with the CR of the poison as the basis of the check.
  • with poison use class feature, you can apply this with an Average sleight of hand check.
  • without poison use, it is a Hard check.
  • failure means the poison is lost, but no longer has a chance to harm the user.
  • Player poisons deal damage equal to the CR of the poison. CR 6 poison adds 6 points of damage to the strike.
  • this can either be lethal or non-lethal damage, determined at time poison is purchased or created.
  • if you have the poison use class feature, and make an impossible check when applying it, you can choose what damage type this inflicts, regardless of its normal damage type.
  • Poisons also inflict a Weak status condition (all of them are available, except poison, duh!).
  • Some status conditions will cost more than others, and will affect the base cost of the poison.
  • a pure damage, no conditions, poison might cost 5 gp per CR of the poison, whereas a poison which deals damage and inflicts Essence Suppression might cost 100gp per CR of the poison.
  • despite the fact that 3500 gp for a CR 35 poison sounds impossibly cheap, this is balanced by the difficulty of all checks to actually use it, if you aren't comparably leveled to the poison.
  • needless to say, no assists.

Caster Touch Attacks

  • consider allowing casters to use (low) BAB + pri stat + dex (plus implement bonus) for ranged touch attacks.
  • compare to (med) BAB + dex + enhancement bonus, and (high) BAB + dex + enhancement bonus
  • This should tighten up to-hits, and make touch AC essentially -10 from base AC (due to low bab delta).

Energy Damage Types

Simplification of ER/DR, proposal:

ER become Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Unique. Uncommon resists all uncommon, rare resists all rare, etc. Nothing resists unique (primal only). Cost of all classes is same as current single type. A single type becomes half that, not matter the type, except unique.


  • Fire
  • Sonic
  • Electric
  • Acid
  • Negative


  • Cold
  • Quiescence (stifling, silence, stilling) Stilling
  • Inertia (enverating?) Stasis
  • Dessicating
  • Positive

Rare: Exotic

  • Light / Dark
  • Force / Void
  • Psychic / Organic
  • Daylight / Moonlight -and/or-
  • Solar / Lunar


  • Primal = doesn't matter if physical or energy, or maybe is both

Physical Damage Types

  • Bludgeon
  • Slash
  • Pierce
  • Claw = Slash + pierce
  • Rake = Slash + bludgeon
  • is it possible to have bludgeon + pierce? Needle, maybe? Thorns? (Getting hit with a cactus or other spiny thing?) Maybe?
  • Bite = slash + pierce + bludgeon
  • Melee = per weapon. Note: Add Claw/Rake to weapons?

DR types?

  • Bludgeon
  • pierce
  • slash
  • Claw?
  • Rake?
  • DR/- = bite already

Keywords applicable to both DR and ER types?

  • Lawful(axiomatic?) / Chaotic
  • Good / Evil
  • Spiritual / Dimensional

Bonus Types

There are 29 bonus types:

  • Untyped Bonus
  • Alchemical Bonus
  • Armor Bonus
  • Armor Enhancement Bonus
  • Circumstance Bonus
  • Competence Bonus
  • Deflection Bonus
  • Dodge Bonus
  • Enhancement Bonus
  • Feat Bonus
  • Inherent Bonus
  • Insight Bonus
  • Integral Bonus
  • Level Bonus
  • Luck Bonus
  • Martial Bonus
  • Material Bonus
  • Morale Bonus
  • Natural Armor Bonus
  • Profane Bonus
  • Racial Bonus
  • Resistance Bonus
  • Retraining Bonus
  • Sacred Bonus
  • Shield Bonus
  • Shield Enhancement Bonus
  • Size Bonus
  • Training Bonus
  • Weapon Bonus

Item Activation

All command word items can still be activated by a standard action. OR, they may be activated, once per round, by a swift action and by expending hit points equal to 5+ the CL of the item.

(RD) the more I think about this, the more I think it should be a feat, or class feature, or something. It's too powerful, even with the HP loss.  It's effectively the Quicken Spell feat for magic items.

Size Bonus

  • for every step you move down in size, you gain: +1 to ac, +1 to stealth, -1 to might, -1 maneuver defense, and -10 feet to Walk speed.
  • sized-small player characters gain these bonuses/penalties because they are down a step from size medium.
  • for every step you move up in size, you gain -1 to ac, -1 to stealth, +1 to might, +1 to maneuver defense, and +10 feet to Walk speed.
  • would apply to any creature increasing their size, regardless of their 'base' size.

slotless notes

  • get rid of synergy bonus for multiple enchants on single items.
    • instead, first enchant is normal cost, any additional enchants cost double.
  • slotless items which are only available as slotless items (e.g. handy haversack, flying carpet, etc.) are normally priced
    • items which are normally "slotted" items but are converted to slotless cost triple normal price.

multi-classing / dual-classing

  • multi-classing: commit to no fewer than 5 levels of any class. If you have at least 5 levels in a class, you may choose to start gaining levels in a different class instead, committing to that new class for a minimum of 5 levels.
  • dual classing: pick two classes at character creation. You level up in an alternating pattern, gain 1 level in one, then gain 1 level in the other. You cannot deviate from this pattern, nor can you choose to multi-class until you have at least 5 levels in BOTH classes.
  • if you choose to multi-class or dual-class, you permanently give up the use of action points.
  • casters: to avoid the "casters that dual- or multi-class are gimping themselves" issue, we will alter how spell save DC's are calculated, from "10 + caster stat + spell level" to "10 + caster stat + half caster level". In the case of a multi- or dual-classed character with caster levels, they base these saves off their total character level.
  • we may need to reduce the total number of spells that casters are able to cast at the top end.
  • If we ever allow multiclassing, we need to create feats for each character class akin to the Shaping Focus (Feat).

magic weapons notes

  • remove ability to enchant ammo; only projectile weapon can be enchanted
    • update limitless quiver to allow other ammo types, but non-magical.
    • ammo also cannot have dweomermetals — dweomermetal effects are instead conferred by the projectile weapon shooting the ammo.
  • create some non-magical ways of adding +to-hit and +damage to weapons/shields/armor/implements
    • will not stack with magic, but cannot be suppressed by anti-magic/dispel, etc.
    • instead of costing more, I think they just shouldn't go as high as +9
    • no properties? (we could, but it would be a lot of work that we don't really need to do right now)
      • quenches of oil, water, brine, blood for +to-hit
      • tempers of single, triple, and seven-fold for +base damage

stuff to update

  • spells page:
  • review counterspell section
  • special spell effects section, bringing back the dead, refers to negative levels - needs updated
  • if/when we update bonus types, many sections, but in particular the 'stacking effects' section, will need updated
  • descriptor section - should probably be simplified. Monsters don't use many descriptors (we may change this, but for now, it's not widely used, which is a nerf to many abilities which rely on a particular descriptor being present).
  • consider calling out a "Rogues Cheat!" class feature for rogues, which spells out that they always do at least half damage against creatures immune or hardened to precision damage, and they can always flank creatures, even if they cannot normally be flanked.
  • review Critical Strike rogue talent -- epic talent which doesn't do very much (rogues already maximize their sneak attack damage on a crit)
  • review ranger traps (lots of actions, lots of rolls, too many chances for them to do nothing)
  • Perform: performance complexity - clarify to setting the CR of the song
    • same for entertaining an audience
  • retraining, and anything else with intervals of days -- clarify how spells can be used to buff the underlying skill bonus.
    • based on how many times you'd have to cast it in an 8 hour period.
    • No more than 4 times per 8 hours, and you must have the ability to cast it that many times without rest.

Started But Unfinished Stuff

  • converting ammo into templates (necessary?)
  • converting magic properties - implements / armor / shields into templates
  • creating new senses - Mindsense
  • defining equipment
  • update poisons page to new format
  • update diseases page to new format
  • magic item crafting rules are only halfway re-written
    • need to update rules for magic enchantment of projectile weapons, but not ammo
  • continue writing Cosmology of Creation page
  • need a page for bonus types, to allow all those broken links to point somewhere.
  • need to update / create page for monster types and subtypes.
    • need to review any broken links to subtypes that we don't actually want to define (e.g. azata)

Siegemetal Alloys

  • like a dweomermetal - any enhancement bonus or magic properties on weapon (or armor?) become extraordinary instead of magic-based.
  • Tempered Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +5 (12-10)
  • Annealed Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +10 (20-10)
  • Quenched Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +14 (28-10)
  • Forged Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +18 (35-10)
  • DR x/magic works against this weapon, since it is not magic.

Skill Challenges

  • use initiative as a means of controlling who acts when
  • require more skill checks each round than there are players -- make the players decide which parts of the challenge they care about most
  • determine what happens if each of the checks isn't made -- consequences are fun. Use the consequences to trigger the event of the next round
  • the first round should simply lay out the challenge, and let people know what skill checks exist
    • may also want to include mystery checks -- players who don't want to do any of the 'mandatory' checks can try something different
    • set the scene -- make sure there's lots of gimmicks, treats, odds & ends to interact with
    • determine the timer -- there should be a clearly defined timer -- "if the foe gains ground at least three times, they escape".
  • the second round should add a complication or twist, or perhaps a boon (if the players did really well)
  • skill challenges should probably be timed to last about 3-4 rounds, just like combat. This would allow traps to become skill challenges, for example, but also weird things like poisons and disease. Chase scenes, bar brawls, verbal sparring, contests, etc. are all also good examples of skill challenges.
  • abstract encounters re-tool -- exceptional success rewards a d6 (or even 2d6) which can be applied to anyone's future checks during the skill challenge. Bonus dice are additive, and as many as you want can be applied to a single roll. However, any roll which has bonus dice applied to it cannot gain bonus dice itself. If you want to accumulate bonus dice, don't get help.
  • need to work out how xp and treasure would be awarded for skill challenges, especially when they are taking place in the middle of a fight (traps, poisons, contests). The challenge itself would ideally represent one or more monsters of the same CR as the encounter, but the math seems a little fuzzy.
  • common skill challenges (bar brawls, chase scenes) might have a random table of complications for the GM to roll. Complications don't occur right away -- the players are notified that the complication might occur if they don't take action to prevent it, and are given a round to deal with it (in addition to dealing with all the other skill checks required).
    • each complication should have a few variants of outcomes, depending on how well the players mitigated it, ranging from "made it worse", to "not as bad", to "didn't happen at all".

character sheet changes

  • include might skill modifiers to encumbrance
  • bailiwick skill ranks granted to associated knowledge skill
  • add button functions from Rick's sheet
  • start listing out the possible moving parts relevant to combat in the buffs and debuffs tab

Highest Priority Things To Do

  • create new monsters for CR's 17 through 25
  • spells pass - rebalance / retool all spells; cut out really terrible / useless spells
  • review equipment bonuses to skills: e.g. masterwork tools, thieves' tools
  • Add definition of triggered free action
  • review 'breaking objects' page, in light of changes to vehicle combat and removal of abstract encounters rules
  • siege weapons - how do they work with the vehicle combat rules?
    • unless we want siege weapons to continue to be cumulative forces, though it seems like people hated all the dice rolling of the abstract encounters
    • right now, vehicles will never penetrate heavy defenses and fortifications; the target DC's are way too high, as are many of the durabilities
  • add weights for all doors and such on the 'breaking objects' page, for purposes of the Might skill.
  • Make traps more interesting/fun
  • Redo analysis pass for all character classes
    • I'd like to revisit the Brawler's restriction on magic weapons (e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fists). Why? (I forgot)
  • feats:
    • Warlord - more formation dice
    • Ranger - more quarry dice
    • Ranger - better traps (better action economy, use against an occupied space)
    • Prowler - improve save DC for encroaching jolt?
    • add a feat to allow "deny saving throw" under Heal to be non-provoking, and take only a move action (no bonus to check)
    • Update/Remove any feats which apply to abstract encounters
    • Review barbarian feats again
    • Fighter - able to challenge one additional target each round

Lower Priority Things To Do

  • templates:
    • consider redoing rogue talents pages into a template
    • consider moving fighter tactics into templates/separate pages
    • consider moving equipment pages into templates (to pull their data into the master tables)
  • Epic Bloodline (archaic bloodline) writeups
  • Sorcerer Bloodlines page
  • Cleric Domains page
  • Auramancy
  • True Dweomers


Class Sub-Class Char Name Lvls Campaign
Alchemist Zanril 1 - 5 Fane
Alchemist Hydrazine 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Barbarian Gant 1 - 5 Fane
Barbarian Keladin 1 - 6 Windward Marches
Barbarian Urban Wrathia 1 - 6 Fractured World
Bard Fennec 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Brawler Punch 1 - 5 Fane
Brawler Culotta 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Cleric Scoria 1 - 5 Fane
Cleric Tedrick 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Fighter Corvus 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Fighter Sojourn 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Paladin Edric 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Prowler Sigel 1 - 5 Fane
Prowler Gabriel 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Prowler Draught 1 - 6 Fractured World
Ranger Nerium 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Ranger Coldre 1 - 6 Fractured World
Rogue Clever Vellum 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Rogue Clever Ashe 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Rogue Ruthless Senka 1 - 6 Fractured World
Sorcerer Ruin 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Warlord Skipia 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Warlord Brin 1 - 6 Fractured World
Wizard Atticus 1 - 5 Fane

Character Classes

  • Sharp (was Gambler) - buff/controller class
  • Pariah (was Warlock) - striker/caster
  • Physical Adept class (Fleshcrafter?) - arcane-powered melee, re-tool eidolon-style abilities as self-buffs
  • Mentat Warsage Storm Knight class - intelligence-based melee and thrown weapons user.
  • Fanatic class - divine melee/unarmed, low heals, light armor, no spells. Lay on Hands that does damage; touch attacks.
  • Toxotes - high damage ranged attacks, trick shots (possibly just create via new rogue talents?)
  • Galvanist
  • Seeker
  • Templar
  • Effigy (Artifact? Vestige?)
  • the character is an actual artifact, which is intelligent. The actual artifact is /somewhere/, though even the player may not know where. They have extended their consciousness into a remote effigy (moppet?) with which they interact with the world.
  • they can use their experience to augment their effigy, giving it better abilities
  • like a summoner or pet class, except that the master isn't present on the battlefield

Interesting Links