Talk:Epic Path

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Monster Treasure and XP

  • when a monster is killed, it drops treasure and grants XP. I suggest we make the treasure very abstract. Namely, "x gp worth of sellable goods".
  • sellable goods can be sold for their listed value (no haggling possible)
  • while in the form of sellable goods, they should have a fixed, abstract weight and size (again, keeping things abstract). Something along the lines of 1 lb per 25 gp value, and 1 cubic foot per 25 lbs. (We can play with this until we're happy with it.)
  • compare to actual money, which weighs 1 lb per 100 coins, and takes up no space (because reasons).
  • after an encounter, if the monsters present were a simple 1:1 with the players, and there were no mixed-CR monsters, the math of how much treasure is simple: one monster's-worth of loot and XP per player. This amount is also awarded to any absent players, even though fewer monsters were fought by the players present.
  • if the encounter featured monsters of differing CR's (e.g. five CR 6's and 1 CR 7), the total XP and treasure values are summed, then averaged across the players present for the fight. All players, including any absent players, get this amount.
  • these rules allow parties to fight normal encounters, tailored to their actual strength, without feeling like their progress has been slowed because someone couldn't make the game.

Crafting Materials

  • another use of 'sellable goods' is to convert them into crafting materials. Crafting materials are necessary if players want to build their own magic items, or mundane items.
  • crafting materials come in the following (nine) classes of quality: Simple, Average, Good, Superior, Peerless, Legendary, Mythic, Transcendent, and Empyrean.
  • sellable goods can only be converted to crafting materials in a workshop. once converted, the actual quality of the goods is determined. In most cases, this is based on the CR of the monster they were taken from. However, a hard or impossible crafting check can grant a small portion of the materials as one higher quality than normal for the CR (hard = 10% of the goods are one step higher in quality; impossible = 25% of the goods are one step higher in quality).
  • No assists allowed, and you can't convert other people's goods. If you convert them, they are for your own crafting use, or for an NPC to use. You cannot give your converted materials to another player.
  • crafting materials would be recorded as "500 gp worth of average quality crafting materials".
  • crafting materials weigh 1 lb per 50 gp of value, and take up 1 cubic foot per 50 lbs. (We can play with this until we're happy with it.)
  • there is no value lost when converting sellable goods to crafting materials. However, we could charge a certain amount of time for it (1 day?).
  • in order to manufacture a magic item or a mundane item, you must use crafting materials of a quality based on the Creator Level of the item being made, in addition to making the skill check to make it, and the time required. You cannot simply use gold pieces to manufacture items.
  • in order to implement these rules, we would need a simple table, which said for CL's 1-4, simple, CL's 5-8, average, etc. We would also need to set a CL for every item (which we're mostly already doing; just need to do that for the mundane equipment). We would also base the creation skill DC on the CL.

getting fancier

  • we could use the top tiers of crafting material quality as a new vector for loot. "You also find one of the dragon's scales is perfect, and appears to be of Mythic quality, if used as a crafting material, and is worth 500 gp." This is still a sellable good, but if converted to crafting materials, is automatically higher quality than normal for the CR of the encounter.
  • we could even reserve the top three tiers of crafting materials as things you can only find as treasure; you can never get them from normal conversion.
  • this would let GM's put a little spice back into their loot system, but without creating much of a burden on them when prepping (what prep?)
  • however, if we did this, we would have to include a certain quantity of these top tiers of mats as requirements for the really good magic items.
  • while that is extra work, it would also let us create a "rare magic item" economy, which could be controlled by the GM via loot. These items can only be crafted by finding enough crafting materials of the appropriate quality, which are only found by fighting bosses, or really unusual monsters. (Of course, the GM could also allow such rare magic items to be found as loot directly, but I feel that's actually less interesting).


  • barter skill can be used to reduce the bulk and weight of sellable goods, at the time they are harvested from the monsters. GP value remains unchanged.
  • challenging check - reduce weight by 10%, with commensurate reduction in bulk
  • hard check - reduce weight by 25%, with commensurate reduction in bulk
  • impossible check - reduce weight by 50% with commensurate reduction in bulk.
  • other allies with Barter skill can assist, as can any ally with an appropriate Profession skill, based on the type of monsters being harvested. GM's call. Survival cannot be used for this (you may know how to get meat from an animal to survive, but there's nothing pretty about it, nor any concern for its resale value).

Player Poisons

  • Use Sleight of Hand to apply poison, with the CR of the poison as the basis of the check.
  • with poison use class feature, you can apply this with an Average sleight of hand check.
  • without poison use, it is a Hard check.
  • failure means the poison is lost, but no longer has a chance to harm the user.
  • Player poisons deal damage equal to the CR of the poison. CR 6 poison adds 6 points of damage to the strike.
  • this can either be lethal or non-lethal damage, determined at time poison is purchased or created.
  • if you have the poison use class feature, and make an impossible check when applying it, you can choose what damage type this inflicts, regardless of its normal damage type.
  • Poisons also inflict a Weak status condition (all of them are available, except poison, duh!).
  • Some status conditions will cost more than others, and will affect the base cost of the poison.
  • a pure damage, no conditions, poison might cost 5 gp per CR of the poison, whereas a poison which deals damage and inflicts Essence Suppression might cost 100gp per CR of the poison.
  • despite the fact that 3500 gp for a CR 35 poison sounds impossibly cheap, this is balanced by the difficulty of all checks to actually use it, if you aren't comparably leveled to the poison.
  • needless to say, no assists.

Caster Touch Attacks

  • consider allowing casters to use BAB + pri stat + dex (plus implement bonus) for ranged touch attacks.
  • This should tighten up to-hits, and make touch AC essentially -10 from base AC (due to low bab delta).

Energy Damage Types

Simplification of ER/DR, proposal:

ER become Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Unique. Uncommon resists all uncommon, rare resists all rare, etc. Nothing resists unique (primal only). Cost of all classes is same as current single type. A single type becomes half that, not matter the type, except unique.


  • Fire
  • Sonic
  • Electric
  • Acid
  • Negative


  • Cold
  • Quiescence (stifling, silence, stilling) Stilling
  • Inertia (enverating?) Stasis
  • Dessicating
  • Positive

Rare: Exotic

  • Light / Dark
  • Force / Void
  • Psychic / Organic
  • Daylight / Moonlight -and/or-
  • Solar / Lunar


  • Primal = doesn't matter if physical or energy, or maybe is both

Physical Damage Types

  • Bludgeon
  • Slash
  • Pierce
  • Claw = Slash + pierce
  • Rake = Slash + bludgeon
  • is it possible to have bludgeon + pierce? Needle, maybe? Thorns? (Getting hit with a cactus or other spiny thing?) Maybe?
  • Bite = slash + pierce + bludgeon
  • Melee = per weapon. Note: Add Claw/Rake to weapons?

DR types?

  • Bludgeon
  • pierce
  • slash
  • Claw?
  • Rake?
  • DR/- = bite already

Keywords applicable to both DR and ER types?

  • Lawful(axiomatic?) / Chaotic
  • Good / Evil
  • Spiritual / Dimensional

Bonus Types

There are 29 bonus types:

  • Untyped Bonus
  • Alchemical Bonus
  • Armor Bonus
  • Armor Enhancement Bonus
  • Circumstance Bonus
  • Competence Bonus
  • Deflection Bonus
  • Dodge Bonus
  • Enhancement Bonus
  • Feat Bonus
  • Inherent Bonus
  • Insight Bonus
  • Integral Bonus
  • Level Bonus
  • Luck Bonus
  • Martial Bonus
  • Material Bonus
  • Morale Bonus
  • Natural Armor Bonus
  • Profane Bonus
  • Racial Bonus
  • Resistance Bonus
  • Retraining Bonus
  • Sacred Bonus
  • Shield Bonus
  • Shield Enhancement Bonus
  • Size Bonus
  • Training Bonus
  • Weapon Bonus

Item Activation

All command word items can still be activated by a standard action. OR, they may be activated, once per round, by a swift action and by expending hit points equal to 5+ the CL of the item.

(RD) the more I think about this, the more I think it should be a feat, or class feature, or something. It's too powerful, even with the HP loss.  It's effectively the Quicken Spell feat for magic items.

Size Bonus

  • size small does the following: +1 to ac, +1 to stealth, -1 to man-off and man-def, -10 feet to Walk speed.
  • applies to 'alter self' and similar spells.
  • consider updating all weapon damage to ignore size
  • if so, we need to create new minor traits to replace 'not compensating' for the Gnome, Halfling, and Grippli (Nagdyr get "Probably Compensating a Little" major trait, which should also be reviewed).
  • would also need to update size/handiness rules a little -- would still apply to size-large weapons
  • we could, in theory, get rid of size-large weapons also, to simplify things. It may not really add much to the game, in the long run (would require removing 4 feats, and a few other racial traits, but otherwise not hard).

slotless notes

  • get rid of synergy bonus for multiple enchants on single items.
    • instead, first enchant is normal cost, any additional enchants cost double.
  • slotless items which are only available as slotless items (e.g. handy haversack, flying carpet, etc.) are normally priced
    • items which are normally "slotted" items but are converted to slotless cost triple normal price.

multi-classing / dual-classing

  • multi-classing: commit to no fewer than 5 levels of any class. If you have at least 5 levels in a class, you may choose to start gaining levels in a different class instead, committing to that new class for a minimum of 5 levels.
  • dual classing: pick two classes at character creation. You level up in an alternating pattern, gain 1 level in one, then gain 1 level in the other. You cannot deviate from this pattern, nor can you choose to multi-class until you have at least 5 levels in BOTH classes.
  • if you choose to multi-class or dual-class, you permanently give up the use of action points.
  • casters: to avoid the "casters that dual- or multi-class are gimping themselves" issue, we will alter how spell save DC's are calculated, from "10 + caster stat + spell level" to "10 + caster stat + half caster level". In the case of a multi- or dual-classed character with caster levels, they base these saves off their total character level.
  • we may need to reduce the total number of spells that casters are able to cast at the top end.
  • If we ever allow multiclassing, we need to create feats for each character class akin to the Shaping Focus (Feat).

magic weapons notes

  • remove ability to enchant ammo; only projectile weapon can be enchanted
    • update limitless quiver to allow other ammo types, but non-magical.
    • ammo also cannot have dweomermetals — dweomermetal effects are instead conferred by the projectile weapon shooting the ammo.
  • create some non-magical ways of adding +to-hit and +damage to weapons/shields/armor/implements
    • will not stack with magic, but cannot be suppressed by anti-magic/dispel, etc.
    • instead of costing more, I think they just shouldn't go as high as +9
    • no properties? (we could, but it would be a lot of work that we don't really need to do right now)
      • quenches of oil, water, brine, blood for +to-hit
      • tempers of single, triple, and seven-fold for +base damage

stuff to update

  • spells page:
  • review counterspell section
  • special spell effects section, bringing back the dead, refers to negative levels - needs updated
  • if/when we update bonus types, many sections, but in particular the 'stacking effects' section, will need updated
  • descriptor section - should probably be simplified. Monsters don't use many descriptors (we may change this, but for now, it's not widely used, which is a nerf to many abilities which rely on a particular descriptor being present).
  • consider calling out a "Rogues Cheat!" class feature for rogues, which spells out that they always do at least half damage against creatures immune or hardened to precision damage, and they can always flank creatures, even if they cannot normally be flanked.
  • review Critical Strike rogue talent -- epic talent which doesn't do very much (rogues already maximize their sneak attack damage on a crit)
  • review ranger traps (lots of actions, lots of rolls, too many chances for them to do nothing)
  • Perform: performance complexity - clarify to setting the CR of the song
    • same for entertaining an audience
  • retraining, and anything else with intervals of days -- clarify how spells can be used to buff the underlying skill bonus.
    • based on how many times you'd have to cast it in an 8 hour period.
    • No more than 4 times per 8 hours, and you must have the ability to cast it that many times without rest.

Started But Unfinished Stuff

  • converting ammo into templates (necessary?)
  • converting magic properties - implements / armor / shields into templates
  • creating new senses - Mindsense
  • defining equipment
  • update poisons page to new format
  • update diseases page to new format
  • magic item crafting rules are only halfway re-written
    • need to update rules for magic enchantment of projectile weapons, but not ammo
  • continue writing Cosmology of Creation page
  • need a page for bonus types, to allow all those broken links to point somewhere.
  • need to update / create page for monster types and subtypes.
    • need to review any broken links to subtypes that we don't actually want to define (e.g. azata)

Siegemetal Alloys

  • like a dweomermetal - any enhancement bonus or magic properties on weapon (or armor?) become extraordinary instead of magic-based.
  • Tempered Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +5 (12-10)
  • Annealed Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +10 (20-10)
  • Quenched Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +14 (28-10)
  • Forged Siegemetal - max absolute bonus of +18 (35-10)
  • DR x/magic works against this weapon, since it is not magic.

Skill Challenges

  • use initiative as a means of controlling who acts when
  • require more skill checks each round than there are players -- make the players decide which parts of the challenge they care about most
  • determine what happens if each of the checks isn't made -- consequences are fun. Use the consequences to trigger the event of the next round
  • the first round should simply lay out the challenge, and let people know what skill checks exist
    • may also want to include mystery checks -- players who don't want to do any of the 'mandatory' checks can try something different
    • set the scene -- make sure there's lots of gimmicks, treats, odds & ends to interact with
    • determine the timer -- there should be a clearly defined timer -- "if the foe gains ground at least three times, they escape".
  • the second round should add a complication or twist, or perhaps a boon (if the players did really well)
  • skill challenges should probably be timed to last about 3-4 rounds, just like combat. This would allow traps to become skill challenges, for example, but also weird things like poisons and disease. Chase scenes, bar brawls, verbal sparring, contests, etc. are all also good examples of skill challenges.
  • abstract encounters re-tool -- exceptional success rewards a d6 (or even 2d6) which can be applied to anyone's future checks during the skill challenge. Bonus dice are additive, and as many as you want can be applied to a single roll. However, any roll which has bonus dice applied to it cannot gain bonus dice itself. If you want to accumulate bonus dice, don't get help.
  • need to work out how xp and treasure would be awarded for skill challenges, especially when they are taking place in the middle of a fight (traps, poisons, contests). The challenge itself would ideally represent one or more monsters of the same CR as the encounter, but the math seems a little fuzzy.
  • common skill challenges (bar brawls, chase scenes) might have a random table of complications for the GM to roll. Complications don't occur right away -- the players are notified that the complication might occur if they don't take action to prevent it, and are given a round to deal with it (in addition to dealing with all the other skill checks required).
    • each complication should have a few variants of outcomes, depending on how well the players mitigated it, ranging from "made it worse", to "not as bad", to "didn't happen at all".

possible skill use

  • movement - challenging DC to ignore movement penalty of 1 square of difficult terrain. 2 squares if hard DC, 3 squares if impossible DC.
  • movement - hard DC to resist 1 square of forced movement. 2 squares if impossible DC.

character sheet changes

  • include might skill modifiers to encumbrance
  • bailiwick skill ranks granted to associated knowledge skill
  • add button functions from Rick's sheet
  • start listing out the possible moving parts relevant to combat in the buffs and debuffs tab

Highest Priority Things To Do

  • review equipment bonuses to skills: e.g. masterwork tools, thieves' tools
  • Add definition of triggered free action
  • Monsters
    • restart moving existing monsters to the new Monster template (version 2.0)
    • finish creating heroic-level monsters (CR's 17 to 20)
  • review 'breaking objects' page, in light of changes to vehicle combat and removal of abstract encounters rules
  • siege weapons - how do they work with the vehicle combat rules?
    • unless we want siege weapons to continue to be cumulative forces, though it seems like people hated all the dice rolling of the abstract encounters
    • right now, vehicles will never penetrate heavy defenses and fortifications; the target DC's are way too high, as are many of the durabilities
  • add weights for all doors and such on the 'breaking objects' page, for purposes of the Might skill.
  • Make traps more interesting/fun
  • create/write skill challenge / non-combat encounter rules, to replace the abstract encounter rules
  • Redo analysis pass for all character classes
    • I'd like to revisit the Brawler's restriction on magic weapons (e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fists). Why? (I forgot)
  • feats:
    • Warlord - more formation dice
    • Ranger - more quarry dice
    • Ranger - better traps (better action economy, use against an occupied space)
    • Prowler - improve save DC for encroaching jolt?
    • add a feat to allow "deny saving throw" under Heal to be non-provoking, and take only a move action (no bonus to check)
    • Update/Remove any feats which apply to abstract encounters
    • Review barbarian feats again

Lower Priority Things To Do

  • templates:
    • consider redoing rogue talents pages into a template
    • consider moving fighter tactics into templates/separate pages
  • Epic Bloodline (archaic bloodline) writeups
  • Sorcerer Bloodlines page
  • Cleric Domains page
  • Auramancy
  • True Dweomers


Class Sub-Class Char Name Lvls Campaign
Alchemist Zanril 1 - 5 Fane
Alchemist Hydrazine 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Barbarian Gant 1 - 5 Fane
Barbarian Keladin 1 - 6 Windward Marches
Barbarian Urban Wrathia 1 - 6 Fractured World
Bard Fennec 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Brawler Punch 1 - 5 Fane
Brawler Culotta 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Cleric Scoria 1 - 5 Fane
Cleric Tedrick 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Fighter Corvus 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Fighter Sojourn 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Paladin Edric 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Prowler Sigel 1 - 5 Fane
Prowler Gabriel 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Prowler Draught 1 - 6 Fractured World
Ranger Nerium 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Ranger Coldre 1 - 6 Fractured World
Rogue Clever Vellum 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Rogue Clever Ashe 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Rogue Ruthless Senka 1 - 6 Fractured World
Sorcerer Ruin 1 - 12 Golden Portal
Warlord Skipia 1 - 8 Windward Marches
Warlord Brin 1 - 6 Fractured World
Wizard Atticus 1 - 5 Fane

Character Classes

  • Sharp (was Gambler) - buff/controller class
  • Pariah (was Warlock) - striker/caster
  • Physical Adept class (Fleshcrafter?) - arcane-powered melee, re-tool eidolon-style abilities as self-buffs
  • Mentat Warsage Storm Knight class - intelligence-based melee and thrown weapons user.
  • Fanatic class - divine melee/unarmed, low heals, light armor, no spells. Lay on Hands that does damage; touch attacks.
  • Toxotes - high damage ranged attacks, trick shots (possibly just create via new rogue talents?)
  • Galvanist
  • Seeker
  • Templar
  • Effigy (Artifact? Vestige?)
  • the character is an actual artifact, which is intelligent. The actual artifact is /somewhere/, though even the player may not know where. They have extended their consciousness into a remote effigy (moppet?) with which they interact with the world.
  • they can use their experience to augment their effigy, giving it better abilities
  • like a summoner or pet class, except that the master isn't present on the battlefield

Interesting Links