Talk:Alchemist

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Favored Class: Alchemist

Level Full Attack BAB Fort Ref Will Base AC Class Bailiwick Linked Skill
1st Atk 2nd Atk 3rd Atk 4th Atk
Fav   +0   -5   n/a   n/a   +2   +2   +0   9 Reason Knowledge (Logic)
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Courageous Milieu (Levels 1 - 7) Progression

Level Full Attack BAB Saving Throws Base AC Bomb Damage Class Features
1st Atk 2nd Atk 3rd Atk 4th Atk Fort Refl Will
1st   +0   -5   -   -   +2   +2   +0   9 1d6 (+ Int Mod) Extracts, Bombs, Alchemist's Fire
2nd   +1 (+1)   -4 (+1)   -   -   +3 (+1)   +3 (+1)   +0   9 2d6 (+ Int Mod) Discovery, Tweaking
3rd   +1   -4   -   -   +3   +3   +1 (+1)   9 3d6 (+ Int Mod) Poison Resistance I
4th   +2 (+1)   -3 (+1)   -   -   +4 (+1)   +4 (+1)   +1   9 4d6 (+ Int Mod) Discovery, Lvl 2 Extracts
5th   +2   -3   -   -   +4   +4   +1   9 5d6 (+ Int Mod) Grand Discovery
6th   +3 (+1)   -2 (+1)   -   -   +5 (+1)   +5 (+1)   +2 (+1)   9 6d6 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
7th   +3   -2   -   -   +5   +5   +2   9 7d6 (+ Int Mod) Lvl 3 Extracts
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Heroic Milieu (Levels 8 - 14) Progression

Level Full Attack BAB Saving Throws Base AC Bomb Damage Class Features
1st Atk 2nd Atk 3rd Atk 4th Atk Fort Refl Will
8th   +4 (+1)   -1 (+1)   -   -   +6 (+1)   +6 (+1)   +2   9 8d6+8 (+ Int Mod) Mutagen, Discovery
9th   +4   -1   -   -   +6   +6   +3 (+1)   9 9d6+9 (+ Int Mod) Mana Burning
10th   +5 (+1)   +0 (+1)   -   -   +7 (+1)   +7 (+1)   +3   9 10d6+10 (+ Int Mod) Discovery, Lvl 4 Extracts
11th   +5   +0   -   -   +7   +7   +3   9 11d6+11 (+ Int Mod) Poison Resistance II
12th   +6 (+1)   +1 (+1)   -   -   +8 (+1)   +8 (+1)   +4 (+1)   9 12d6+12 (+ Int Mod) Grand Discovery, Discovery
13th   +6   +1   -   -   +8   +8   +4   9 13d6+13 (+ Int Mod) Lvl 5 Extracts
14th   +7 (+1)   +2 (+1)   -   -   +9 (+1)   +9 (+1)   +4   9 14d6+14 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
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Valorous Milieu (Levels 15 - 21) Progression

Level Full Attack BAB Saving Throws Base AC Bomb Damage Class Features
1st Atk 2nd Atk 3rd Atk 4th Atk Fort Refl Will
15th   +7   +2   -   -   +9   +9   +5 (+1)   9 15d6+30 (+ Int Mod) Poison Use, Venom Sac
16th   +8 (+1)   +3 (+1)   -   -   +10 (+1)   +10 (+1)   +5   9 16d6+32 (+ Int Mod) Lvl 6 Extracts, Discovery
17th   +8   +3   -   -   +10   +10   +5   9 17d6+34 (+ Int Mod) Poison Resistance III
18th   +9 (+1)   +4 (+1)   -   -   +11 (+1)   +11 (+1)   +6 (+1)   9 18d6+36 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
19th   +9   +4   -   -   +11   +11   +6   9 19d6+38 (+ Int Mod) Grand Discovery
20th   +10 (+1)   +5 (+1)   -   -   +12 (+1)   +12 (+1)   +6   9 20d6+40 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
21st   +10   +5   -   -   +12   +12   +7 (+1)   9 21d6+42 (+ Int Mod) Extract Accelerants
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Mythic Milieu (Levels 22 - 28) Progression

Level Full Attack BAB Saving Throws Base AC Bomb Damage Class Features
1st Atk 2nd Atk 3rd Atk 4th Atk Fort Refl Will
22nd   +11 (+1)   +6 (+1)   -   -   +13 (+1)   +13 (+1)   +7   9 22d6+66 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
23rd   +11   +6   -   -   +13   +13   +7   9 23d6+69 (+ Int Mod) Lesser Eureka Bombs
24th   +12 (+1)   +7 (+1)   -   -   +14 (+1)   +14 (+1)   +8 (+1)   9 24d6+72 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
25th   +12   +7   -   -   +14   +14   +8   9 25d6+75 (+ Int Mod) Paragon of Science
26th   +13 (+1)   +8 (+1)   -   -   +15 (+1)   +15 (+1)   +8   9 26d6+78 (+ Int Mod) Grand Discovery, Discovery
27th   +13   +8   -   -   +15   +15   +9 (+1)   9 27d6+81 (+ Int Mod) Greater Eureka Bombs
28th   +14 (+1)   +9 (+1)   -   -   +16 (+1)   +16 (+1)   +9   9 28d6+84 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
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Legendary Milieu (Levels 29 - 35) Progression

Level Full Attack BAB Fort Ref Will Base AC Bomb Damage Class Features
1st Atk 2nd Atk 3rd Atk 4th Atk
29th   +14   +9   -   -   +16   +16   +9   9 29d6+116 (+ Int Mod) Primal Bombs
30th   +15 (+1)   +10 (+1)   -   -   +17 (+1)   +17 (+1)   +10 (+1)   9 30d6+120 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
31st   +15   +10   -   -   +17   +17   +10   9 31d6+124 (+ Int Mod) Perfect Eureka Bombs
32nd   +16 (+1)   +11 (+1)   -   -   +18 (+1)   +18 (+1)   +10   9 32d6+128 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
33rd   +16   +11   -   -   +18   +18   +11 (+1)   9 33d6+132 (+ Int Mod) Grand Discovery
34th   +17 (+1)   +12 (+1)   -   -   +19 (+1)   +19 (+1)   +11   9 34d6+136 (+ Int Mod) Discovery
35th   +17   +12   -   -   +19   +19   +11   9 35d6+140 (+ Int Mod) Paragon of Science II
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a few features should probably just go away: swift alchemy, swift poisoning, instant alchemy, venom sac
(RD) so, in general, does this approach seem to make sense to you? Are you okay with, for example, moving mutagen all the way up to 8th level?  I ask because this same philosophy (several major features in courageous, then 1 per milieu after that) will likely get used in all the other classes, to some degree or another.

Bombs and Extracts

ok, third swag at a bomb model. bomb damage starts at 1d6+0 (plus Int Mod only added once per bomb, not per die) scales up to 1d6+4 per die (plus int mod once per bomb).  this boosts the first level damage and nerfs a bit starting at 2? thoughts?    
(RD) after a lot of thought, it looks okay.  Might be a smidge weak, but I can live with that.  I would suggest we hard-code the damage numbers into the table, like we have them now, rather than putting in all these formulas for the players to figure out.  We can describe the formula in the text of the bomb ability, if you really want.  Also, it should go up by +1 base damage per milieu. It's almost there now, but level 28 should still be 1d6+3, and therefore level 35 is just 1d6+4.  Alternatively, it should go up by +1 at the last level of each milieu, in which case, you need to change levels 7, 14, and 21.
(RD) It's going to be hard to fine tune numbers like this before we do our character balance pass and all the deep number crunching that will entail.  I don't think we have a good idea of what stat progression really looks like under the current rules. Between magic items, feats, class features, racial traits, and level bonuses (+1 every 4 levels), there's a lot of moving parts on stats.  This is further complicated by the fact that there's a wide variety between classes that mostly only care about one stat (alchemists, sorcerers) and classes that need a lot of stats to be decent (monks, bards, clerics, rangers).  I.e. the classes that only need one stat can specialize that stat fairly cheaply, while the multi-stat classes will need to spend a LOT to keep their mandatory stats up at useful numbers.

Bomb Damage Draft

Alch Level Dmg/Lvl Int mod/bomb Bomb Damage Avg/Bomb 2/round avg 3/round avg
1 1d6+0 +5 Int 1d6+0 8.5 17 25.5
2 1d6+0 +5 Int 2d6+0 12 24 36
3 1d6+0 +5 Int 3d6+0 15.5 33 48.5
4 1d6+0 +5 Int 4d6+0 19 38 57
5 1d6+0 +5 Int 5d6+0 22.5 45 67.5
6 1d6+0 +5 Int 6d6+0 26 52 78
7 1d6+0 +5 Int 7d6+0 29.5 59 88.5
8 1d6+1 +5 Int 8d6+8 41 81 122
9 1d6+1 +6 Int 9d6+9 46.5 93 139.5
10 1d6+1 +6 Int 10d6+10 51 102 153
11 1d6+1 +6 Int 11d6+11 55.5 111 166.5
12 1d6+1 +7 Int 12d6+12 61 122 183
13 1d6+1 +7 Int 13d6+13 65.5 131 196.5
14 1d6+1 +7 Int 14d6+14 70 140 210
15 1d6+2 +7 Int 15d6+30 86.5 173 259.5
16 1d6+2 +8 Int 16d6+32 96 192 288
17 1d6+2 +8 Int 17d6+34 101.5 203 304.5
18 1d6+2 +9 Int 18d6+36 108 216 324
19 1d6+2 +9 Int 19d6+38 113.5 227 340.5
20 1d6+2 +10 Int 20d6+40 120 240 360
21 1d6+2 +10 Int 21d6+42 125.5 251 376.5
22 1d6+3 +10 Int 22d6+66 153 306 459
23 1d6+3 +10 Int 23d6+69 159.5 319 478.5
24 1d6+3 +11 Int 24d6+72 167 334 501
25 1d6+3 +11 Int 25d6+75 173.5 347 520.5
26 1d6+3 +11 Int 26d6+78 180 360 540
27 1d6+3 +12 Int 27d6+81 187.5 375 562.5
28 1d6+3 +12 Int 28d6+84 194 388 582
29 1d6+4 +13 Int 29d6+116 230.5 461 691.5
30 1d6+4 +13 Int 30d6+120 238 476 714
31 1d6+4 +14 Int 31d6+124 246.5 493 739.5
32 1d6+4 +14 Int 32d6+128 254 508 762
33 1d6+4 +15 Int 33d6+132 262.5 525 787.5
34 1d6+4 +16 Int 34d6+136 271 542 813
35 1d6+4 +17 Int 35d6+140 279.5 559 838.5

quantity of bombs

I suggest 8 bombs per day plus 1 additional bomb per milieu above courageous (i.e. 9 bombs at heroic (level 8), 10 at valorous (level 15), 11 at mythic (level 22), and 12 at legendary (level 29)).
if we go to 3 bombs per round (I assume that's for haste?), we might want to bump these up to +2 per milieu above courageous...
note that EUREKA bombs add another 9 at high levels

Discoveries and Grand Discoveries

  • possibly rebuild discoveries to reduce quantity available, or even map it into the 4 choices at 4 levels (16 discoveries).
  • alchemists get 1 grand discovery per milieu (in the middle levels of the milieu -- 4, 11, 18, 25, and 32. -- Need to review grand discoveries for appropriateness at all levels.
  • update the infusion discovery to be just 1st and 2nd level extracts, and make more discoveries for sharing out higher level extracts.
  • replace all the damage type bomb discoveries with "element bomb" "rudiment bomb" and "fundament bomb" discoveries, instead, where a single damage type of common/uncommon/rare energy is selected at time discovery is taken. Each can be taken more than once to select another damage type of the same commonality.
  • grand discoveries could be a combination of several 'normal' discoveries -- e.g. 1 grand discovery = all 3 infusion discoveries; 1 grand discovery = greater and grand mutagen; 1 grand discovery = alchemical claws, prehensile organs, explosive halitosis, hyperextended joints. This would be in addition to the discoveries being available separately.

Extracts

  • are alchemists spontaneous casters (create extracts on the fly) or preparation casters (create extracts at the start of the day)? Currently, they are both, though they must have grand mutagen discovery to use (pre-prepared only) extracts in mutagen form.
does mana burning make sense for alchemists? From a game mechanics point of view, do alchemists get enough extracts to make mana burning even a little tempting? (they get 56 total per day at level 35)  And from a lore point of view, does it make sense that they 'burn' multiple extracts to make one of them super-strong?  (I'll have the same question about the ranger, by the way)

Alchemist Example Builds

(not a legal build; needs reviewed) 

Bomb-Throwing Build

Human, base stats: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, int 18, Wis 10, Chr 8.

Example Feats

1st Level: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Lets you put your bombs exactly where you want them

3rd Level: Weapon Focus:Bombs. Still making the bombs better.

5th Level: Extra Discovery: Acid Bombs*. Now that the bombs go where you want them, you start to make them nassssty.

7th Level: Dodge. A point of armor class and unlocks good stuff.

9th Level: Close Quarters Thrower. Throw bombs in melee!

11th Level: Charging Hurler. Lets you keep up with the first round rush and still attack.

13th Level: Far Shot. Throw bombs waaaay further and still hit.

15th Level: Mobility. Avoid those attacks of opportunity.

17th Level: Shot on the Run. Pop around a corner, throw a bomb, hide. So awesome.

19th Level: Clustered Shots. This lets you punch through DR like crazy.


Example Discoveries:

2nd Level: Precise Bombs

4th Level: Explosive Bombs*

6th Level: Breath Weapon Bomb

8th Level: Fast Bombs

10th Level: Force Bomb*

12th Level: Demolition Bomb*

14th Level: Dispelling Bomb*

16th Level: Frost Bomb*

18th Level: Elixir of Life

20th Level: Fast Healing 5, Smoke Bomb*, Inferno Bomb*.


Hulchemist Build

Human, base stats: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, int 18, Wis 10, Chr 8

Example Feats

1st Level: Dodge, Mobility. Move around in melee, get hit less, and melee sucks, you want the armor class bad.

3rd Level: Weapon Focus: Natural Attacks. Yeah, you wreck'em in melee, you betcha!

5th Level: Power Attack. Yeah, you wreck'em in melee, you betcha!

7th Level: Point Blank Shot. Still gotta work the bombs!

9th level: Toughness. Hit points, baby!

11th Level: Precise Shot. Workin' the bombs

13th level: Shot on the Run. The corner thing, so awesome.

15th Level: Rending Claws. Oh, yeah, even more melee damage

17th Level: Defensive Combat Training. Stops the bad guys from tackling you all the time

19th Level: Advanced Def Combat Training. No, seriously. Getting grappled sucks.


Example Discoveries:

2nd Level: Alchemical Claw

4th Level: Spontaneous Healing

6th Level: Greater Mutagen

8th Level: Vestigial Arm

10th Level: Vestigial Arm

12th Level: Grand Mutagen

14th Level: Tentacle

16th Level: True Mutagen

18th Level: Nauseating Flesh

20th Level: Alchemical Abomination, Improved Alchemical Claw, Preserve Organs.