Talk:Siege Weapons

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Discussion

Range bands should be the same as used for Vehicle combat, namely, Close, Short, Medium, Long, and Out.

Close range is 50 feet or less.

Short range is 50 feet to 1000 feet-ish

Medium is 1000 feet to a mile-ish

Long is one mile to fifteen miles-ish

Out is fifteen miles to 50-ish miles.


Line of site is either required, or not. If not required, line of effect is still required. IE, each siege weapon needs an entry for line of site or not. All 'melee' siege weapons (wheels, rams, screws, etc) have a range of close and require line of sight. "Direct fire' siege weapons, (fire projectors, etc) require line of site. Indirect fire siege weapons (bombards, trebuchets, catapults, etc) never need line of sight, but always take a -10 penalty on Sunder rolls on the first shot, which goes down by three with each additional shot on the same target from the same firing position. Flexible siege weapons (ballistas) may or may not be fired direct. If they have line of sight and are fired direct, they hit normally. If they do not, and are fired indirect, they take the indirect penalties.

Note line of sight is always assumed to be available for all vehicle combat, making ballistas very useful on vehicles.


Notes On System

New alchemical item: Siege Powder; Used to power bombards and general blowing stuff up


Siege Engine classifications:

Sizes: Large Huge Gargantuan Colossal


Ranges: Close Assault Direct Fire Indirect Fire


Primary Targets: Structures Wooden Stone and Metal Anti-personnel



Siege Engine Properties:

Weapons can be built in almost any size you can imagine, which is why Large Greatswords even exist. Sadly, the weapons as written are as large as can be wielded by any creature, no matter how you may try. But, what if you make the weapons even bigger, and stop trying to wield them? It is indeed possible to build a crossbow twenty-five feet across, and such a behemoth is a sight to behold in battle!

Such gigantic weapons, too big to wield but certainly not to big to USE, are the province of Siege Weapons. Such gigantic weapons are used to kill castles and fortresses, along with such jobs as dealing with giant monsters and invading fleets.

Because of their enormous size, siege engines hit unbelievably hard. They can be used to Sunder anything at all, and indeed, this is one of their principal uses: Sundering the fortifications of a hard target, or, sundering the other side's siege engines. Siege engines can also be used to attack creatures, although getting a hit this way can be difficult, to put it mildly, since a to-hit roll versus the creature's armor class is required, rather than a simple targeting check to get the fire in-target. Many siege engines affect an area of effect, and when used this way the chances of a hit go up drastically, as a targeting check will cause the Siege Engine to affect all creatures caught in the area of effect.


Sizes:

Siege Engines come in size Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal. (Any size Medium Siege Engines are basically variants of the Hand Onager, and use that write-up for their effects.) In general, the bigger they are, the further they reach and the harder they hit, but the harder they are to use.


For every size category of the Siege Engine above the crew's size category, take a cumulative -4 on all to-hit and targeting rolls made with the siege engine. The size of the crew, both full staff and in battle, is determined by the average size of the creatures working in it, rounded down. Thus, one size Large giant and four size Medium Orcs comprise a size medium crew. Try not to recruit Gnomes as crew, despite how handy they are in making siege engines.

Calculating the size of your crew: Small or smaller creatures add 0 size points. Medium creatures give 1 size point. Large give 2, Huge 3, Gargantuan 4, and Colossal 5. Add up all the size points and then divide them by the number of crew required to staff the siege engine, either during battle or at full staff. Round down in all cases. If the resulting Size average is 2, you can man a size Large siege engine without penalty. If the size average is 3 you can man a size Huge siege engine without penalty. Gargantuan engines require a crew size of 4, and Colossal engines require a crew size of 5.

In general, most siege engines are manned by size medium creatures, and the penalty is overcome by skill and the accumulation of bonuses.



Proficiency:

The Siege Engineer feat grants proficiency with all Siege Engines, but has inconvenient prerequisites unless you are a heavily martially-oriented character. Siege Engines are also classed as Exotic Weapons. As a result, the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat may also be taken in a Siege Engine, and each time it is taken you gain proficiency in one Siege Engine. If you try to use a Siege Engine without any proficiency, you take the -4 non-proficiency penalty, and in addition, the Size penalty is increased from -4 to -6 (ouch). Luckily, only one member of a Siege Engine crew is required to have proficiency, who is usually but not always the crew leader.


Crew:

As a rule of thumb, outside of combat a Siege Engine requires ten or more crew for every size category it has, starting at Large. Thus, size Large engines require ten or more crew, size Huge engines twenty or more crew, Gargantuan engines thirty or more crew, and size Colossal engines forty or more crew. This is the number of crew required to build and maintain a Siege Engine, to assemble and break it down, and to move it around. However, these numbers are the ideal, and rarely is a Siege Engine blessed with a full crew once the battle begins.

Each write-up includes the bare minimum combat crew needed to operate a siege engine in combat without penalty. This number can be very small: A size large ballista, for example, should be crewed with ten size medium creatures, but in a pitched battle it can be operated just fine by one size medium creature, who will be very, very busy. Similarly, a size Gargantuan Ballista should have a crew of forty medium sized humans, but in battle can be run just fine by only five.

In all cases, size Large creatures count as 2 crew, size Huge count as three, size Gargantuan count as 4 and size Colossal count as five. This means that a single size Colossal creature can run just about any siege engine by themselves in combat. Similarly, eight size Colossal creatures make up a full crew for a size Colossal siege engine. The only problem is finding size Colossal crew....


Disable Device:

Ah, sabotage! A character with Disable Device may attempt to use that skill to render a Siege Engine unusable. This typically involves removing a smaller piece of the Engine, such as part of the trigger mechanism, or a governor, or mis-aligning the aiming mechanism, or some other rather subtle effect. Inflicting major damage on a Siege Engine is covered under the Sunder rules. To disable a Siege Engine using Disable Device requires 2d4 rounds of uninterrupted work, and requires a Disable Device roll of 20, plus 5 per size category of the Siege Engine. Thus, 25 for a Large Engine, 30 for a Huge, 35 for a Gargantuan, and 40 for a size Colossal. To speed up such a Disable Device roll inflicts a -10 penalty to the roll for every round you reduce the time by. To quickly repair a Siege Engine from such Sabotage requires a Profession: Siege Engineer skill roll against the same target number, and similarly requires 2d4 rounds of work. To permanently repair the Engine after such subtle damage requires the crew to spend a full day, going over the Engine from top to bottom and setting it back to rights.


Constructing, Maintaining, and Repairing:

Building and maintaining a Siege Engine, and repairing it after being sundered (broken condition) or destroyed in battle, requires at least one member of the crew to have a relevant Profession skill. Profession skills that are relevant include: Architect, Blacksmith, Bowyer, Carpenter, Engineer, Leathersmith, Shipwright, Soldier, Trapsmith, and Weaponsmith. It is also possible to put ranks into the dedicated Profession Skill: Siege Engineer. If you have such a thing, all rolls you make to work on an actual Siege Engine gain a +5 bonus. To build, maintain, or repair a Siege Engine requires a roll of 10 plus 5 times the size of the Siege Engine. Thus, a Large Siege Engine requires a profession skill roll of 15, size Huge requires a 20, size Gargantuan requires a 25 and a size Colossal requires a 30. To build, maintain, or repair a Siege Engine requires 2d4 days per size category (2d4 for large, 4d4 for Huge, 6d4 for Gargantuan, and 8d4 for Colossal). Reducing the time required for any of these rolls inflicts a -3 penalty per day the time is shortened, to a minimum of one day.

All rolls made to construct, maintain, or repair a Siege Engine are made by the member of the crew with the highest relevant Profession skill. Every other member in the crew that has a relevant Profession Skill may Assist automatically, adding +2 to the roll, up to a maximum of +10.

All rolls to construct, maintain, or repair a Siege Engine assume the full crew size (10, 20, 30 or 40) is available to do work for 8 hours each day. For every crew member you are short of that number, all rolls receive a cumulative -1 penalty.

Example: For a single character to build a size Colossal Siege Engine in one day, assuming they do not have the specialized Siege Engineer Profession Skill, would require an average Profession Skill roll of 126. (Yikes!) This is calculated as: Size Colossal has a base roll of 30. Working by yourself means you are at -39 for lacking the required 40 crew, making the target roll required 69. A Size Colossal Siege Engine requires 8d4 days to build, for an average of 20 days. Lowering this by nineteen days inflicts a further -57 penalty to the roll, for a total target required of 126. So, unless you are very high Epic, don't try that.


Moving and Assembling:

Once built, Siege Engines are generally quite static. Battles, however, are not. Even more important, building a Siege Engine in the middle of a battle, while it is certainly possible, is likely to draw the fire of any opposing siege engines, not to mention attacks by the enemy. No enemy wants to let a Siege Engine show up without opposition. So, it is possible to 'tear down' and 'set up' an already built Siege Engine, so as to move it into operating position and then quickly 'set it up". This involves breaking the Siege Engine into smaller pieces that are more easily moved around, usually by heavy wagons or the like. Doing so does not repair or maintain the siege engine: It retains its condition throughout this process.

To tear down, move and assemble a Siege Engine requires the full crew (10, 20, 30 or 40). To tear down or assemble a size Large Siege Engine requires 1 hour. A size Huge engine requires 2 hours, a size Gargantuan engine requires 4 hours and a size Colossal engine requires 8 hours. If you have less than a full crew but at least half the full crew, this process takes twice the listed time. If you have less than half the full crew, all times are in days instead of hours. Once disassembled, a Large Siege Engine can be moved as 4 cartloads of cargo. A size huge Siege Engine is 16 cartloads, a size Gargantuan is 64 cartloads, and a size Colossal Siege Engine is a mighty 250 cartloads of material. Moving a really big Siege Engine is a major undertaking!

To successfully tear down, move and assemble a Siege Engine requires a profession Skill roll by at least one member of the crew, who is present to supervise the entire process. The target number is 10 for a Large Siege Engine, 15 for a Huge Siege Engine, 20 for a Gargantuan and 30 for a Colossal. This roll cannot be assisted, and has no time or crew modifiers. Failing this roll inflicts the Broken condition on the Siege Engine once it is all put back together, but this condition is not noticed until the thing is fully set up. See the Constructing, Repairing, and Maintaining section for how to fix this.


Mobile Engines:

Some Siege Engines are battlefield mobile. Such engines have a move speed, and can be moved that speed by all members of the full crew taking a move action in a round. This requires the entire crew to be present, ie, 10, 20, 30 or 40. This movement is affected by rough terrain, obstacles, etc, as normal.

Note that some Siege engines have speed 0: Such engines cannot be moved unless you tear them down and reassemble them.

Caveat: Vehicles may have siege engines mounted upon them. In such cases, the siege engine attached to the vehicle and is static only in relation to the vehicle. As the vehicle moves, so does the siege engine.


Facing:

Siege Engines can generally fire in a ninety degree cone in front of them. When counting Line of Effect to a target, every successive square must be further away from the edge of the Siege Engine designated as it's Front. Siege Engines with a Move speed may change their Facing, ie, move their Front side, as a move action. Siege Engine without a move speed can only change their Front by being disassembled and rebuilt(see Moving and Assembling section), so choose carefully where you're pointing that thing.



Defense:

Siege Engines are high priority targets on the battle field. They have a Sunder DC listed, which is generally quite high: Siege Engines are expected to be taking hits from other Siege Engines, and are built durable. It is also possible to add additional armoring and plating to Siege Engines. This usually is as simple as adding a Siege Gallery to a Siege Engine, to represent the addition of walls and roofs facing the enemy. If even more protection is desired, the Sunder DC may be increased by 10 by doubling the time and gold spent on building the Siege Engine. This also increases the number of cartloads required to move a Siege Engine by fifty percent, to represent the extra bulk of the additional defenses.


Mishaps:

Siege Engines are big and complex, and operating one is not simple even under calm conditions. In the middle of the huge stress of a battle, mistakes will be made, sooner or later. Rolling a natural 1 on an attack roll with a siege engine results in a Mishap: Something went badly wrong. This inflicts the Broken condition on the Siege Weapon. Fixing this broken condition requires the times and crew listed under the "Constructing, Maintaining, and Repairing" section.

Special: If the crew leader of a Siege Engine has the Siege Engineer feat, it is not possible to have a Mishap.


Magical and Masterwork:

Siege Engines may be made Masterwork, adding 300 gold to the cost and raising their Craft DC by 5.

Magical Siege Engines are made using the Enchant Magical Items rules, and may have enhancement bonuses, special materials bonuses, and magical weapon properties like any other exotic weapon, although the cost for such things is very high. And yes, a Gargantuan trebuchet enchanted to +9, made out of Paramount Alloy, and with the Calamity Magical Weapon Property, is completely possible, utterly terrifying, and incredibly expensive.


AOE Attacks:

Many siege engines attack an area. As a result, they do not check against the armor class of creatures they are aiming at, but must instead roll an Aiming Check against the Aim DC of the Siege Engine. This aim check is made by the Crew Leader and modified by the Size Penalty and Range Penalty of the Siege Engine, and is improved by any Magical Enhancement bonuses, Masterwork bonuses, and successive aiming bonuses. If a structure is the target of a Sunder Check by the Siege Engine, this roll must succeed: Sundering a castle wall requires surprisingly good aim.


Ranged Attacks:

Many Siege engines fire indirectly: They lob their attacks high over the battlefield. Such engines do not require line of sight, but must be able to trace line of effect through the air to reach their targets. Indirect fire is modified as follows:

"Firing Blind", No Spotter or Line of Sight to Target: -10 per range increment, minimum -10 Spotter, but no Line of Sight to Target: -6 Successive Shots with Spotter or Line of Sight: +1 per shot, maximum +10 Follow-on Shots after a successful hit: +10

In addition, many Siege Engines have a minimum range: They cannot attack targets inside this range under any circumstances.


Critical Hits:

On a roll of a natural 20 on a to-hit roll or a targeting check roll, the Siege Engine has scored a critical threat. Depending upon the Siege Engine in question, the chance for a critical threat may be even higher! When a threat is rolled, the Siege Commander may roll again. If the second roll is also a hit, or, a successful targeting roll, the damage the Siege engine does is multiplied by the critical modifier of the siege engine. If it was being used to perform a Sunder instead of damage to creatures, the number of successes is multiplied by the critical modifier instead. Getting a critical hit with a Siege Engine is a Big Deal: players should be wary of such events.

Note: Critical Hit feats possessed by the Siege Commander do NOT apply to the threat range of a siege engine. However, if the expense and time is put in to enchant a Siege Engine, then the magical Weapon Properties that add to threat range may be placed upon the Siege Engine.


Standard Engines:

Springal indirect, aoe, anti-personnel, wooden

Ballista direct or indirect, aoe, anti-personnel, wooden

Catapult indirect, aoe, structures or anti-personel

Trebuchet indirect, aoe, structure

Ram close assault, structures

Screw close assault, stone or metal only


Siege Gallery Close assault, portable fortification

Tower close assault, anti-personnel, (negates a fortification)

Boarding Ramp close assault, anti-personnel (negates a fortification)

Assault Bridge Close assault, Anti-personel, (negates a fortification)

Siege Ladder close assault, anti-personnel (negates a fortification)

Boiling Oil close assault, anti-personnel, defensive


Magical Engines:

Using Siege Powder:


Rocket Springal indirect, aoe, anti-personnel

Bombard indirect, aoe

Cannon direct, aoe

Fire Gonne close assault or direct, anti-personnel or wooden, aoe

Volcano close assault, wooden or anti-personnel, AOE


Using Turning Stones:

Snail = wheel trebuchet

Rocking Horse = falling-beam trebuchet

Manticore = colossal springal

Juggernaut = crushing wheel

Ox-tail Flail = earth maul

Devil Wheel = harvester

Cauldron = magical boiling oil

Lava Loom = pours out lava

Lightning Lance = Fires lightning bolts

Thunder Gun = Huge AOE sonic attacks

Tornado Mill = Looks like a windmill...that launches tornados

Temblor Engine = Unimpressive looking thing that causes earthquakes

Winter Maker = Big blue-domed crystal thing that causes a blizzard wherever you want one, as long as its within range.

Glacier generator = creates a glacier that slowly rumbles up to the walls of a fortification, forming a ramp

Blade Gyre = Creates a whirling storm of axes and swords wherever you point it.

Eclipse Generator = You guessed it: Causes eclipses. All enemy structures take a bunch of sunders while the eclipse lasts

Meridional Besieger = Closes off a large area (like an enemy castle) so nothing can get in and out. Then, wait.


Ammo:

large ammo weighs ten pounds per shot. Huge weighs 50 pounds per shot, gargantuan weighs 250 pounds per shot, colossal weighs 1250 pounds per shot, and Titanic weighs 6000 pounds per shot


ammo types:


Ball ammo - used by catapults, trebuchets, cannons, bombards, etc


Standard boulder, does single target damage of x sunders plus splash personell damage, may be shot at creatures


bursting bundle ammo, does single target damage of 1/2 sunders or hitpoint damage, round up, doubles the splash damage and adds +4 to the save DC against the splash damage


flaming ammo, does normal damage except all splash damage is now doubled, and is fire damage against a normal Fort save


bomb ammo, does half the Sunders but full hitpoint damage to all creatures in splash radius, Fort save at -4 for half damage


chain ammo, increases area of effect by 5 feet. Does full hitpoint damage to all creatures in area of effect, no cover. Special: +1 Sunder against vehicles and siege weapons.


plague ammo(yuck), creates a lingering effect in the splash radius. Save Fort or gain a Disease of CR equal to the CR of the siege weapon. Can be dead cows, behives, masses of noxious oils, etc.


alchemical : As bomb ammo, but may apply cold, lightning, sonic, acid, or fire, and does full Sunders, to boot.


Special Alchemical: As bomb, does full sunders, and glue ammo entangles all creatures in area, or, smoke blocks lne of sight to all squares, or, poison blocks line of sight and poisons all in area.


Bolt ammo - used by ballistas, scorpions, manticores, etc. Standard bolt, flaming bolt, net bolt, alchemical


Alchemicals - can be used in any weapon, must be specially made.

poison cloud, alchemical fire, alchemical acid, alchemical ice, alchemical lightning, alchemical smoke, alchemical glue


effects: bursting, flaming, and alchemicals do splash damage based on size

standard does regular damage

bomb does AOE damage

chain does extra damage to vehicles and seige weapons

plague is dead animal bits, causes disease in a spread

net bolt and glue entangle

smoke blocks line of sight


first cut: 78 engines


Conventional Siege Engines

General Purpose -Simple

Large catapult

Huge Catapult

Gargantuan Catapult


Anti-personnel - Simple

Large Springal

Huge Springal

Colossal Manticore


Anti-Monster/Opposing Siege Weapons - Simple

Large Ballista

Huge Ballista

Gargantuan Ballista

Colossal Ballista


Anti-Fortification - Martial

Huge Trebuchet

Gargantuan Trebuchet

Colossal Trebuchet


No range, anti-gate - Martial

Large Battering Ram

Huge Battering Ram

Gargantuan Battering Ram

Colossal Battering Ram


Screws (add to a battering ram) Exotic

Huge Siege Screw- Useful against walls

Gargantuan Siege Screw

Colossal Siege Screw


Portable fortifications - Simple

Large Siege Gallery

Huge Siege Gallery

Gargantuan Siege Gallery

Colossal Siege Gallery


Used to go over walls - martial

Large Siege Tower

Huge Siege Tower

Gargantuan Siege Tower

Colossal Siege Tower


Assault Bridge (Added to a Siege Tower) - Exotic

Large Assault Bridge

Huge Assault Bridge

Gargantuan Assault Bridge

Colossal Assault Bridge


Siege Ladder - Simple

Medium Siege Ladder

Large Siege Ladder

Huge Siege Ladder


Used to defend a fortification


Boiling Oil - Simple

Medium Cauldron

Large Cauldron

Huge Cauldron


Alchemical Siege Engines, powered by Siege Powder


Rockets (Add to a Springal) - Martial


Siege-powder powered battering rams: - Exotic

Large Rocket Lance

Huge Rocket Lance

Gargantuan Rocket Lance


Cannons - Direct fire, against fortifications, siege, monsters - Martial

Large Cannon

Huge Cannon

Gargantuan Cannon


Bombards - Indirect fire, fortifications only - Martial

Large Bombard

Huge Bombard

Gargantuan Bombard

Colossal Bombard


Flame-Throwers - no range, large AOE's, used like cauldrons. - Exotic

Large Fire Gonne

Huge Fire Gonne

Gargantuan Volcano

Colossal Volcano


Magical Siege Engines - Exotic

Gargantuan Bucking-Beam Trebuchet

Colossal Bucking-Beam Trebuchet


Huge Snail Trebuchet

Gargantuan Snail Trebuchet

Colossal Snail Trebuchet


No range anti-army - Exotic

Huge Juggernaut Wheel

Gargantuan Juggernaut Wheel

Colossal Juggernaut Wheel


Large Ox-Tail Flail

Huge Ox-Tail Flail

Gargantuan Ox-Tail Flail


Large Devil-wheel

Huge Devil-Wheel

Gargantuan Devil-Wheel


Special Magical Engines, all Colossal, all Exotic:

Lava Loom - top-end boiling oil

Lightning lance

Thunder Gun

Tornado Mill

Temblor Engine

Wintermaker

Glacier Generator - top end siege tower

Blade Gyre

Eclipse Generator

Meridional Besieger - top end siege gallery

Sun Slayer

Siege Weapon Damage Chart

We should write up a 'veteran watchman'(CR9), a 'guard captain' (CR16), and a watch commander(CR23) and make rules for various higher level guard troops to use their CR for the above damage calculation. For example, a Size large catapult, a Simple Siege Weapon, manned by a CR9 veteran watchman, would do double base damage, or 8d6. That same weapon manned by a 'guard captain' would do 12d6 of damage. See how that would work?


Large Huge Gargantuan Colossal Titanic
Simple Siege Weapons
Damage: 4d6 6d6 8d6 10d6 14d6
Average: 14 21 28 35 49
Sunder Bonus/Number +4/1 +5/2 +6/3 +7/4 +8/5
CR/DC 3/13 6/16 9/19 12/21 15/24
Hardness/Dur 17/4 19/8 21/12 28/16 32/20
Martial Siege Weapons
Damage: 5d6 9d6 13d6 17d6 21d6
Average: 17.5 31.5 45.5 59.5 73.5
Sunder Bonus/Number +10/2 +11/3 +12/5 +13/6 +14/8
CR/DC 5/14 9/19 14/22 19/27 24/33
Hardness/Dur 19/9 22/13 31/16 37/24 42/32
Exotic Siege Weapons
Damage: 7d6 12d6 16d6 20d6 24d6
Average: 24.5 42 56 70 84
Sunder Bonus/Number +20/3 +23/5 +26/7 +29/10 +32/13
CR/DC 11/20 18/26 25/35 32/43 39/50
Hardness/Dur 27/12 36/20 44/28 52/40 60/52