Adding Feats To Items: Difference between revisions

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==Adding Feats To Items==
==Adding Feats To Items==


This is only a first draft, but Todd has tentatively approved the pricing. The underlying assumption is that existing items that do this are ‘balanced”, though some concession to the ‘pre-made items are reduced in cost' will probably show up. Please feel free to comment on my logic.
This is only a first draft, but Todd has tentatively approved the pricing. The underlying assumption is that existing items that do this are , though some concession to the 'pre-made items are reduced in cost' will probably show up. Please feel free to comment on my logic.


First test case:
First test case:
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Second test case:
Second test case:
Rod of Greater Metamagic - Quicken - the most expensive rod, costs 170,000gp, allows the casting of up to 3 ninth level spells per day, quickened when wielded. I posit that, given the item creation rules and the rules for ‘charges per day', we can assume that "all the time” is equal to 5 times per day, not 3, so "having” the quicken feat should cost 3/5ths / 170,000gp or 283,333gp. Note that, to cast a 9th level spell, quickened, uses a level 13 spell slot, which you can only get as an epic character who has taken the "Improved Spell Capacity” epic feat at least 4 times (this would only get you 1 level 13 spell slot per day, unless your relevant stat was high enough to give bonus spells (i.e. at least 36, and a 60 would be needed for +4 level 13 spell slots)). Note also that you need a minimum INT (or CHA) of 23 to even cast a 13th level spell. For now, let's assume this item gives an epic feat with 4 epic pre-requisite feats, and a pre-req stat of 24, for 283,333gp.
Rod of Greater Metamagic - Quicken - the most expensive rod, costs 170,000gp, allows the casting of up to 3 ninth level spells per day, quickened when wielded. I posit that, given the item creation rules and the rules for 'charges per day', we can assume that "all the is equal to 5 times per day, not 3, so "the quicken feat should cost 3/5ths / 170,000gp or 283,333gp. Note that, to cast a 9th level spell, quickened, uses a level 13 spell slot, which you can only get as an epic character who has taken the "Improved Spell epic feat at least 4 times (this would only get you 1 level 13 spell slot per day, unless your relevant stat was high enough to give bonus spells (i.e. at least 36, and a 60 would be needed for +4 level 13 spell slots)). Note also that you need a minimum INT (or CHA) of 23 to even cast a 13th level spell. For now, let's assume this item gives an epic feat with 4 epic pre-requisite feats, and a pre-req stat of 24, for 283,333gp.


Third test case:
Third test case:
Rod of Greater Metamagic - Extend - costs 24,500gp. The extend spell metamagic feat only adds 1 spell level to the base spell, meaning a level 9 spell requires a level 10 slot. Again, we assume this is only 3/5's the cost of a full-time feat on an item, bringing us to 40,833gp. I would argue that, despite requiring 1 "Improved Spell Capacity” feat, this is only barely an epic feat itself. I would suggest that 40,833gp be the baseline for a non-epic feat with an epic-feat pre-requisite, and a stat pre-req of 20 (for a 10th level spell slot).
Rod of Greater Metamagic - Extend - costs 24,500gp. The extend spell metamagic feat only adds 1 spell level to the base spell, meaning a level 9 spell requires a level 10 slot. Again, we assume this is only 3/5's the cost of a full-time feat on an item, bringing us to 40,833gp. I would argue that, despite requiring 1 "Improved Spell feat, this is only barely an epic feat itself. I would suggest that 40,833gp be the baseline for a non-epic feat with an epic-feat pre-requisite, and a stat pre-req of 20 (for a 10th level spell slot).


Fourth test case:
Fourth test case:
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Fifth test case:
Fifth test case:
Rod of Lesser Metamagic - Extend - 3000gp. Here's the real killer. Even with the 3/5ths modifier, it only costs 5000gp. Again, using the above logic, we have a non-epic feat, with arguably 1 non-epic pre-requisite and a stat pre-req of 14. I'll state right off that I think this price is broken.
Rod of Lesser Metamagic - Extend - 3000gp. Here's the real killer. Even with the 3/5ths modifier, it only costs 5000gp. Again, using the above logic, we have a non-epic feat, with arguably 1 non-epic pre-requisite and a stat pre-req of 14. I'll state right off that I think this price is broken.


My suggestion for pricing:
My suggestion for pricing:
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for each stat pre-requisite, I'd suggest a cost increase of 1000gp per stat point required above 10. (E.g. if DEX 19 is required, it would add 9000gp to the price.)
for each stat pre-requisite, I'd suggest a cost increase of 1000gp per stat point required above 10. (E.g. if DEX 19 is required, it would add 9000gp to the price.)
for any Epic pre-requisite feats, the price should increase by 25,000gp.
for any Epic pre-requisite feats, the price should increase by 25,000gp.


Epic Feats, base price: 100,000gp on an item, with typical modifiers for location, etc., as per magic item creation rules.
Epic Feats, base price: 100,000gp on an item, with typical modifiers for location, etc., as per magic item creation rules.
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for each stat pre-requisite, add 1000gp for each point above 10, up to 20. Starting at 21, and each point thereafter, cost should be 10,000gp per point. (E.g. if DEX 21 is required, it would add 20,000gp to the price.)
for each stat pre-requisite, add 1000gp for each point above 10, up to 20. Starting at 21, and each point thereafter, cost should be 10,000gp per point. (E.g. if DEX 21 is required, it would add 20,000gp to the price.)
for any Epic pre-requisite feats, the price should increase by 25,000gp.
for any Epic pre-requisite feats, the price should increase by 25,000gp.


To apply the above to our test cases, to see how they shake out:
To apply the above to our test cases, to see how they shake out:
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My price for the bracers which give bow/crossbow proficiency: 20,000gp. This is dead on, for obvious reasons.
My price for the bracers which give bow/crossbow proficiency: 20,000gp. This is dead on, for obvious reasons.


My price for the Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken: base 100,000 (epic), +100,000 (4 epic pre-reqs), +50,000 (stat 24 pre-req) = 250,000gp. This comes in a little low, probably because the base pre-reqs would only get you 1 level 13 spell slot. A more realistic build would be: 100,000gp (epic), +200,000 (8 epic pre-reqs), 50,000 (stat 24 pre-req) (This build gives 5 spells per day, which is the target for ‘all the time'). = 350,000gp. This seems about right.
My price for the Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken: base 100,000 (epic), +100,000 (4 epic pre-reqs), +50,000 (stat 24 pre-req) = 250,000gp. This comes in a little low, probably because the base pre-reqs would only get you 1 level 13 spell slot. A more realistic build would be: 100,000gp (epic), +200,000 (8 epic pre-reqs), 50,000 (stat 24 pre-req) (This build gives 5 spells per day, which is the target for 'all the time'). = 350,000gp. This seems about right.


My price for the Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend: base 20,000 (non-epic), +25,000 (1 epic pre-req), +10,000 (stat 20 pre-req) = 55,000gp. This is about right for the above price, but using the previous test case's logic, it should really be 5 epic feats, which would make the price 155,000gp. I would argue that this is a more realistic price for casting 5 level 10 spells per day.
My price for the Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend: base 20,000 (non-epic), +25,000 (1 epic pre-req), +10,000 (stat 20 pre-req) = 55,000gp. This is about right for the above price, but using the previous test case's logic, it should really be 5 epic feats, which would make the price 155,000gp. I would argue that this is a more realistic price for casting 5 level 10 spells per day.
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My price for the Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend: base 20,000gp (non-epic), +5,000 (1 non-epic feat for spell level), +4,000 (stat 14 pre-req) = 29,000gp. To account for the 5x per day casting, it should really add another 4 non-epic feats, for a total price of 49,000gp.
My price for the Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend: base 20,000gp (non-epic), +5,000 (1 non-epic feat for spell level), +4,000 (stat 14 pre-req) = 29,000gp. To account for the 5x per day casting, it should really add another 4 non-epic feats, for a total price of 49,000gp.


To apply this to totally new items, I'll calculate the cost of a few of the cooler feats:
To apply this to totally new items, I'll calculate the cost of a few of the cooler feats:


Improved Critical - requires weapon proficiency and bab of +8. Bab doesn't really translate to cost so well. I'd argue that this would only be usable at stalwart or above levels, to accommodate that pre-req. Cost: 1 non-epic feat, 1 non-epic pre-req, no stats = 25,000gp. Compare to "Keen” modifier (a +1 weapon mod, making it cost anywhere from 6000gp (on a +1 weapon) to 38,000gp (on a +9 weapon) on a non-epic item).
Improved Critical - requires weapon proficiency and bab of +8. Bab doesn't really translate to cost so well. I'd argue that this would only be usable at stalwart or above levels, to accommodate that pre-req. Cost: 1 non-epic feat, 1 non-epic pre-req, no stats = 25,000gp. Compare to "modifier (a +1 weapon mod, making it cost anywhere from 6000gp (on a +1 weapon) to 38,000gp (on a +9 weapon) on a non-epic item).


Devastating Critical - requires STR 25, cleave, great cleave, improved critical, overwhelming critical, power attack, weapon focus. That's 100,000gp (epic), 25,000 (5 non-epic pre-req's), 25,000 (1 epic pre-req), 60,000 (STR 25) = 210,000gp. As a note, this feat, when on an item, would suffer from a fixed DC, unlike someone who actually has the feat, equal to 10+ half CL (probably 20)+STR used as pre-req (25, bonus is +9)= 29. Someone who actually has the feat naturally will improve with both level and STR gains. I would argue this compares roughly with ‘vorpal', a +5 mod, which could cost as little as 50,000gp on an item, but up to several million on an epic item).
Devastating Critical - requires STR 25, cleave, great cleave, improved critical, overwhelming critical, power attack, weapon focus. That's 100,000gp (epic), 25,000 (5 non-epic pre-req's), 25,000 (1 epic pre-req), 60,000 (STR 25) = 210,000gp. As a note, this feat, when on an item, would suffer from a fixed DC, unlike someone who actually has the feat, equal to 10+ half CL (probably 20)+STR used as pre-req (25, bonus is +9)= 29. Someone who actually has the feat naturally will improve with both level and STR gains. I would argue this compares roughly with 'vorpal', a +5 mod, which could cost as little as 50,000gp on an item, but up to several million on an epic item).


Epic Spell Penetration - requires spell penetration and greater spell penetration. 100,000gp (epic) + 10,000gp (2 non-epic feat pre-reqs) = 110,000gp for a +6 to break SR when casting spells.
Epic Spell Penetration - requires spell penetration and greater spell penetration. 100,000gp (epic) + 10,000gp (2 non-epic feat pre-reqs) = 110,000gp for a +6 to break SR when casting spells.

Latest revision as of 12:41, 10 March 2016

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