Talk:Monster Patterns and Roles

I hesitate to even ask this, but do we need a pattern for making something smaller?  I believe this is how it should be achieved (rather than just arbitrarily making it smaller with no 'cost').  Basically, the opposite of the Giant Creature pattern.

boy, that's a good question. i've started to put together a 'pygmy' pattern several times, but it just seems way too nasty.  of course, that then begs the questions of would it be okay if it was a negative CR pattern, or a 'positive' CR with a hefty damage nerf, and whether or not somebody would consider that to be the most offensive name in history.  i'm certainly open to the notion, though.

I'd call it a 'tiny creature' pattern, personally, and make it -1 size category, and give it the other benefits of a smaller size (+1 AC, +1 stealth, -1 MD, etc.). I would make it a +1 CR pattern, just like the Giant pattern.  As for the 'cost' of gaining the smaller size, I think this is a conversation we should have about ALL the patterns.  I think we should start from "assume all their base numbers are equal to their ADJUSTED CR" (not Base), and then we apply flat modifiers (usually penalties) from there, to determine the 'cost' of all the non-numeric benefits the pattern is giving them.  As a note, the whole reason something is a +3 pattern is because the non-numeric benefits are so massive, you need the wiggle room of 3 CR's to properly penalize the monster's numerics down to something that is fair.

(should keep writeups of all patterns in case MMM isn't working at some point.)

I am currently creating a spreadsheet that contains every change each pattern makes. This is a task that would be much easier with two people, but it's going to take HOURS to do. Please let me know when you are available to help me with this.

any time!  with the new laptop, we can even do all that fancy online collaboration and spreadsheet sharing and stuff you've been wanting to do. :)

I will also be converting all the pattern pages into templates so data can be pulled from them into the monster template. The spreadsheet lets me make sure I have every field I need (and none that I don't need) before I create these templates. So, until the spreadsheet is done, I can't start on the template-ification process. Once that is ready, though, I'd like your help converting the current pages to templates, as well.

heck, just gimme a template and i'll do them all.  assuming i don't use the wrong case for something that is :)

I'm currently considering making each pattern page look like a blank monster, with the changes highlighted in the appropriate fields of the stat blocks. This should make it easier for a non-computer GM to print out and see where to make changes to a monster. (This would all be cosmetic, with regards to the template behind it; the template bits are what get read by the monster template, and this would just be a fancy way of displaying the data to a human.) Thoughts?

hrrrm.  this sounds cool, but do we need it? we have the pattern pages written already for human-readable stuff. if doing this is easy, then sure, but if it's a bunch more work, nah.

the templatification of the pages will replace all the existing pattern information. Also, while you claim it's human-readable now

hey, i'm human! :)

, I find the presentation of that data very difficult to work with. It isn't sorted in the same order as how I would add it to a monster, for example. Once it's all in a template, we can format it for presentation however we want to. Presenting it as a blank monster template is just one way to do that. I'm open to alternatives.

whatever is easy, looks good, and satisfies your OCD is fine by me. :) 

Here are a few quick questions in the meantime:

1. ) does every pattern assign the pattern name as a subtype (e.g. advanced creature gets the advanced subtype)?

yes, i think this is a good idea

1. ) do all the patterns increase hit points by 2 per HD of the adjusted CR? or are there some which give 3 or 4 or some other metric?

when i originally did the patterns years ago, they were nudging hit points by a scaling percentage based on the CR bump of the pattern. if that's a simpler way of doing things, let's do that instead. i'd much prefer to use a percentage of hitpoints, because if we adjust the base monsters in the future, the patterns auto-scale to match.  if you'd rather do the HD thing, yes, the numbers get bigger the larger the CR bump is (i did a spreadsheet to work this out ages ago, but it would need re-done since the hitpoints just got a big nudge)

(RD) hit points is two words. 

(sigh) :)

Also, none of these things is 'simple'.  The simplest thing would be to give them the hit points of their Adjusted CR, but I can't tell if that's what you were aiming for or not.  This would always scale to whatever, and would also update based on any changes we make to the monsters in the future.

then let's just do that. every value that can be cribbed from their adjusted CR (hit points, hit dice, to-hits, DC's, attack damage, MD, MO, powers damage, etc, etc, etc) is fine by me. this means we'd simplify the patterns a ton, since we'd not have to hand-calculate all these variables, which was a LOT of work. I don't particularly care how we translate and display the 'base chassis' of the monsters, i'm just wanting a way to increase perceived variety for the players. fancy, scary names, evocative descriptions, and weird, themed powers are the key for that, in my books.   

(RD) so every patterned monster is exactly equal to a vanilla monster of the adjusted CR, but they also get all the non-numeric benefits of the pattern? (e.g. the agile pattern is immune to flat-footed and any condition that prevents them from taking a 5-foot step).  Isn't that too much?  Doesn't that make a monster with any pattern much more powerful than one with no pattern, in every case?  I would suggest that, at a minimum, all patterns suffer a numerical hit of 1 CR, and we can go higher than that if we need to for patterns that give a lot of non-numeric benefits.  I would further suggest that, if the goal is to make them scary and weird, we don't do the lazy thing, but instead have a CR adjustment for each of these values, individual to each pattern, and this CR adjustment should only rarely be the same as their total adjusted CR, to keep things fair.  An agile creature, for example, would likely have reflex saves equal to their adjusted CR (or maybe even 1 higher?) but their will and fort saves would probably be 1 lower than their adjusted CR.  Similarly, their initiative would be 1 higher (maybe even 2 higher?), but their hit points would be lower. Etc.  It's more work, but it keeps these things relevant and interesting, rather than just making the monster more of everything.

TB- no, no double dipping, of course not, that isn't balanced at all.  the 'flat adders' in the patterns as written were designed to: 1) Pull the monster to parity with a monster of its adjusted CR, 2) in some cases add a smallish benefit on top of that, since I expected the hit points to trend a bit low, and 3) in some cases, make the monster a bit weaker.  the Mage patterns, for example, get only their base hit points (two words!) which makes them relatively fragile compared to their adjusted CR peers. all the pattern changes are relative to their neighboring CR's, see, and to make this messier, the nudge pass we just did knocked all the patterns as written off-kilter.  

in other words, what you just suggested is how the patterns are supposed to work. :)

So, forget all the adders in the patterns as written, those are not needed in the MMM. IF we just use the adjusted CR values, this gets much simpler, and almost all of these values would collapse down to a +1 or +2 or -1 or -2 nudge, and would then float if we have to make any future adjustments. Yes, we'd have to convert from the old fornat to the new format, but honestly, that sounds like fun :)

1. ) do any patterns increase the hit dice of the monster?

no

1. ) do the hit point increases need to key off of the hit dice of the adjusted CR? Could they key off of the hit dice of the original CR instead?

however is the easier way (but see the percentage nudge idea I originally did, above)

action items for million monster machine:
* draft of prefix names for each modified CR value (-2 CR to +5 CR) 
    * least (-2)
    * lesser (-1)
    * common (+0)
    * robust (+1)
    * major (+2)
    * superior (+3)
    * elite (+4)
    * supreme (+5)
* review all existing monster names, and all proposed monster names, to make sure our prefixes don't lead to really dumb, unreadable names (lesser greater whompus, for example).
* strip all the roles out of every monster that has a role.  
  * add language into the description that says "This monster is nearly always a <role> monster.  It is highly recommended that this role be applied to it." or whatever.
  * recode any role-specific powers into new fields that are specific to roles-only powers.  This will require me to create new fields for the template, but doesn't require a complete revamping of every monster.

• Monster name structure:

• Base name= Existing monster names, checked to 'make sense' "Orc Raider" (CR3)
• CR Name= Prefixed to Base name "Elite Orc Raider" (CR7)
• Role Name= Appended to Full Name with Spacer "Elite Orc Raider -Heavy" (CR7 heavy mob)
• Pattern Name= Suffixed to Base Name with leading Comma "Elite Orc Raider, Coursing -Shooter" (CR10 shooter mob)
• Multipat Names= Multiple of Pattern Name "Elite Orc Raider, Coursing, Agile -Killer" (CR13 killer mob)

• Pattern Changes -Might not cover everything in every pattern, but it covers everything I could find.

• 1 ) CR

• 2 ) Size

• 3 ) Type -Always gains a Subtype of the Pattern name. (This relates to the keywords open topic. I like keywords, but wonder how much use they are. If/when the MMM becomes a thing, could be pretty huge.)

• 4 ) Initiative Modifier (1st skill mod)

• 5 ) Senses - adding one or more sense types is different than a perception boost (see next)

• 6 ) Perception Skill Modifier (2nd skill mod)

• 7 ) AC - removing flat-footed and touch makes this much simpler, yay!

• 8 ) Hit Dice -This is where Patterns add hit points if the CR is not changed

• 9 ) Defensive Ability - Where things like Immune to various conditions/damage types/oddball things, new ER or DR, unique defensive powers (see agile creature for an example), bonuses to some or all saves, etc, etc, etc, is recorded. Should be added text field(s)? For maximum flexibility? Should we try to integrate this stuff into the existing template, or just make a "pattern power" addition and put this stuff in as a block of text? ER and DR needs to be calculated dynamically, and other things are as well.

• 10 ) Out of Combat - GM hint text changes go here, if needed.

• 11 ) Speed - Can get complex, as new movement types currently fall here, and if the base mob has that movement type already, the effect changes.

• 12 ) Melee Attacks - This is where the Pattern is made capable at its new CR. can be replaced with a base CR change, except that leaves non-powered Patterns weak.

• 13 ) Damage - same as melee attacks, above

• 14 ) Space

• 15 ) Reach

• 16 ) Offensive Ability - Same philosophy as Defensive Ability, above.

• 17 ) Save DC adjustment

• X ) Ability Scores - remove ability scores from all patterns

• 18 ) Maneuver Offense

• 19 ) Maneuver Defense

• X ) Feats - remove feats from all patterns

• X ) Skills - remove skills from all patterns

monster roles expansions:

• legends- get a power which they declare at the top of the round, targeting an area on the map, and at the end of the round it goes off. This is in addition to their full normal turn on their initiative.

• as we get into the bestiary pass, there's been a request for a different 'reset/shakeup' mechanic as used by heavies, threats, tanks, etc.

• Possibility 1: Defense: hardened vs all damage plus Reset/Shakeup: free action forced movement attack power.
• Possibility 2: Defense: regeneration plus Reset/Shakeup: a teleport damage power.
• Possibility 3: Defense: bloodied value heal/temp immune plus Reset/Shakeup: damaging teleport once.

The third one is what we have today.

if we wanted to get crazy, we could mix and match, any defense plus any reset/shakeup ability, making 9 total flavors of reset power. just a thought.