Talk:Skills

Skill Bonuses

• skill basis (automatic/passive) — +1 to +9
• magic enhancement (item) — +1 to +9 (+1 to +5 pre-epic, +6 to +9 epic)
• feats:

• skill expert feat — +2
• skill specialist feat — +2
• skill prodigy feat — +1
• less dedicated feats — +1 to +4
• tertiary feats — +1

• racial traits or class feature

• major trait or major class feature — +1 to +4
• minor trait or lesser class feature — +1 to +2

• weapon bonus (from weapon qualities) — +1 to +4 (only for specific combat maneuvers)

Specific Skill Bonuses

• weapon qualities — +2 to one or more combat maneuvers.

Skills available per primary Stat

Str:

• Might
• Naturalism
• Piloting (based on ship class)
• Warfare

Con:

• Divinity
• Piloting (based on ship class)
• Reason
• Warfare

Dex:

• Acrobatics
• Disable Device
• Escape Artist
• Movement
• Naturalism
• Piloting (based on ship class)
• Sleight of Hand
• Spellcraft
• Spycraft
• Stealth

Int:

• Knowledge (Arcana)
• Knowledge (Deep History)
• Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
• Knowledge (Engineering)
• Knowledge (Geography)
• Knowledge (History)
• Knowledge (Local)
• Knowledge (Logic)
• Knowledge (Nature)
• Knowledge (Nobility)
• Knowledge (Planes)
• Knowledge (Religion)
• Linguistics
• Piloting (based on ship class)
• Reason
• Spellcraft
• Spycraft

Wis:

• Barter
• Divinity
• Heal
• Naturalism
• Perception
• Piloting (based on ship class)
• Profession (all)
• Reason
• Sense Motive
• Survival

Cha:

• Bluff
• Diplomacy
• Disguise
• Divinity
• Handle Animal
• Intimidate
• Perform (all)
• Piloting (based on ship class)
• Spellcraft
• Spycraft
• Use Magic Device
• Warfare

Proposed Change - Skill Mastery Levels

Mastery Levels

• Untrained

• stat bonus only to checks, cannot ever get a result higher than 20.
• Critically fail on a natural 1, or by being 5 lower than DC
• cannot critically succeed on a 20.

• Trained

• requires at least 1 rank in the skill
• allows checks to critically succeed on a 20 (getting +5 to total result).
• allows checks to go over 20

• Expert

• requires Skill Expert feat
• some classes and races can get expert in a skill without the feat, and at fewer ranks
• feat grants +2 feat bonus to the skill (doesn't scale)
• no longer critically fail on a natural 1, only if you are 5 lower than DC
• critically succeed on a 19-20 (getting +5 to total result)
• some skills may offer new skill uses at this level

• Specialist

• requires Skill Specialist feat and a minimum number of ranks (11)
• some classes and races can get specialist level in a skill without the feat, and at fewer ranks
• feat grants +2 feat bonus to the skill (doesn't scale)
• crit on an 18-20 (getting +7 to total result)
• new skill uses available (current epic only stuff?)

• Prodigy

• requires Skill Prodigy feat and a minimum number of ranks (21)
• some classes and races may allow Prodigy level in a skill without first purchasing Skill Expert and Skill Specialist, and at fewer ranks.
• feat grants +1 feat bonus to the skill (doesn't scale)
• crit on a 17-20 (getting +10 to total result)
• new skill uses available (the really GOOD stuff - Champions level stuff)

Rules Questions

this is excellent feedback, by the way, and shows that your thinking is in-line with what we've been discussing. this is very encouraging, as having a 'fresh set of eyes' is very useful to cross-check our wacky thinking.  Thanks! :)

Untrained Use

In Pathfinder, you can use skills you're not trained in as long as the DC is no more than 10. (This includes your stat modifiers and any other random bonuses you can get, but obviously not ranks or favored class bonuses.) For example, from [1]:

Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.

(The libraries kerfluffle is really saying "if you have tools, you can use them, even if you're not totally sure how they work, because the usual penalties for failure, if any, still apply.")

Being able to operate against DC 10 seems reasonable to me. I can see it appearing to be skill-dependent in some circumstances, but this simple rule covers most cases IMO, and doesn't need special exceptions per skill.

Yeah, DC 10 is less than a CR 1 Average check.  It hardly comes up in our game.  I'm planning to replace this concept with an Everyman Skill value that scales with character level, and will (broadly-speaking) give a 50/50 chance to make an Easy check for your level (with some slight variations for some classes, probably).  For trained-only skills, you'll have to have at least 1 rank in the skill before you can use your Everyman skill value.  Everyman skills can't crit -- they get no bonus on a natural 20, other than the 20 itself.  I haven't written this up yet, but it's going to happen. I've just been focused on magic items lately.

Examples

Disable Device doesn't need special casing, because locks have DC 20 or higher in EP. (If all I know about picking locks is what I saw on TV heard from the bard, of course I can't open it with a twig I found lying on the ground, unless it's really a DC 10 latch.) Neither should the others; though UMD is silent in PF, DCs can be control this effectively, as can Handle Animal, and Spellcraft is different in EP.

Similarly, in PF, [2] says:

Special: You must be trained to use this skill, but you can always attempt to read archaic and strange forms of your own racial bonus languages. In addition, you can also always attempt to detect a forgery.

This is also already managed in EP via the DCs, and I think there's no reason not to allow DC 10 checks (e.g., the speaker is speaking slowly and loudly).

Armor Check Penalty

Similarly, if ACP applies to a skill, it should apply when using it untrained. (This doesn't appear to be called out.)