Talk:True Dweomers: Difference between revisions

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I'll get you a template today.  For the monk colors, that's easy enough to do, but I'm guessing you mean on the spell list tables, not inside each spell page, right?
er...yes?  make it look the same as spells...only COOLER
now that i think about it....would it be possible to put the colors into the TD pages?  if it's a PITA, don't worry about it
it is possible, but I'd need you to tell me where you want the color to show up.
i'm thinking a bar of color at the top of the description.  it might be useful to have the name show up in gold letters in that bar, or something, and maybe a second bar lower down that displays the DC's to cast the spell? just thinking....
point of order: do we want a different name than TDx?
hellball 10 evo, epic dispel 10 enchant, dreamscape 10 ill, unlife 10 necro, eternal freedom 10 abj, ruination 10 conju, crown of vermin 10 trans,
animus blast 11 conju, dragon strike 11 evo, damnation 11 necro, lord of nightmares 11 ill, verdigris 11 abj, geminal origin 11 ench, mass frog 11 trans,
peripetia 12 ench, greater ruination 12 conju, mummy dust 12 necro, kinetic control 12 abj, eclipse 12 evo, eidolon 12 trans, living lightning 12 ill,
pestilence 13 ill, nailed to the sky 13 evo, superb dispel 13 enchant, safe time 13 abj, dire tide 13 conju, spell worms 13 necro, raise desmesne 13 trans,
soul dominion 14 necro, momento mori 14 ench, demise unseen 14 ill, rain of fire 14 evo, vengeful gaze of god 14 abj, Let Go Of Me 14 trans, utter ruination 14 conju,






==System and Structure==
==System and Structure==


{| class="ep-default"
{| class="ep-default"
|+ '''True Dweomer Damage Model'''
|+ '''New True Dweomer Damage Model'''
! Spell Circle || Burn Cost || Min Level || Base Dice|| max dice || range || avg || perfected
! Spell Strata || Burn Cost || Min Level || Base Dice|| max dice || range || avg   ||    Enhanced  ||  Maximized  ||  Max+Enh || Perfected  ||  Absolute
|-
|-
| TD1   || +1 || 21st || 1d6+6/CL || 31d6+186 || 217-372 || 294.5 || 744
| 1   || +3 || 19th || 1d6+6/CL || 35d6+210 || 245-420 || 332.5 ||   367.5    ||  420    ||    455  ||    490  ||    525
|-
|-
| TD2   || +1 || 23rd || 1d6+8/CL || 31d6+248 || 279-434 || 356.5 || 868
| 2   || +3 || 21st || 1d6+7/CL || 35d6+245 || 280-455 || 367.5 ||   402.5    ||  455    ||    490  ||    525  ||    560
|-
|-
| TD3   || +1 || 25th || 1d6+9/CL ||      32d6+288 || 320-480 || 400 || 960
| 3   || +3 || 23rd || 1d6+8/CL ||      35d6+280 || 315-490 || 402.5 ||   437.5    ||  490    ||    525  ||    560  ||    595
|-
|-
| TD4   || +1 || 27th || 1d6+10/CL ||      32d6+320    || 392-512 || 452 || 1024
| 4   || +3 || 25th || 1d6+9/CL ||      35d6+315        || 350-525 || 437.5 ||   472.5    ||  525    ||    560  ||    595  ||    630
|-
|-
| TD5   || +1 || 29th || 1d6+11/CL ||      33d6+363 || 399-561 || 480 || 1122
| 5   || +3 || 27th || 1d6+10/CL ||      35d6+350 || 385-560 || 472.5 ||   507.5    ||  560    ||    595  ||    630  ||    665
|-
|-
| TD6   || +1 || 31st || 1d6+13/CL ||       33d6+429 || 462-627 || 544.5 || 1254
| 6   || +3 || 29th || 1d6+11/CL ||     35d6+385 || 420-595 || 507.5 ||   542.5    ||  595    ||    630  ||    665  ||    700
|-
|-
| TD7   || +1 || 33rd || 1d6+15/CL ||       34d6+510 || 544-714 || 629 || 1428
| 7   || +3 || 31st || 1d6+12/CL ||     35d6+420 || 455-630 || 542.5 ||   577.5    ||  630    ||    665  ||    700  ||    735
|-
|-
| TD8 ||  +1 || 35th || 1d6+16/CL ||       34d6+544 || 588-748 || 668 || 1496
| 8 ||  +3 || 33rd || 1d6+13/CL ||     35d6+455 || 490-665 || 577.5 ||   612.5    ||  665    ||    700  ||    735  ||    770
|-
|-
| TD9 ||  +1 || 35+ || 1d6+17/CL ||      35d6+595 || 630-805 || 717.5 || 1610
| 9 ||  +3 || 35+ || 1d6+14/CL ||      35d6+490 || 525-700 || 612.5 ||   647.5    ||  700    ||    735  ||    770  ||    805
|}
|}


True Dweomers are affected by metamagic feats, but note that many of the more potent feats have such a large level adjustment, they cannot be fit onto the higher level true dweomers without use of a magic wand or spell research.
===Things that can be spell buffed===


*initiative = enchant
*death checks (minor) = necro
*Maneuver Offense = trans
*Maneuver Defense = abj
*Maneuver Damage adders (scale this HEAVY) = abj
*Maneuver Damage bonus Dice (scale this HEAVY) = evoc


*+to-hit (major) = ill
*Melee to-hit = trans
*ranged to-hit = trans
*spell(ray) to-hit = necro




*range
Adders to
*All damage (major!!) = evoc
*melee dam = trans
*ranged dam = ench
*ray dam = ill
*spell dam  (major!) = ill


true Dweomers can use any range


Damage dice added to
*All damage (major!!) = abj
*melee dam = trans
*ranged dam = conj
*ray dam = ill
*spell dam  (major!) = ench


*area of effect


true dweomers with AOE's tend to be LARGE, up to thousands of feet, miles, even leagues.  note that metamagic can make even that larger.
bonuses to  
*weapon Crit range = trans
*weapon crit severity = necr
*weapon Crit bonus dice = ench
*weapon crit numeric adders = ill
*skill crit range = ench
*skill crit severity = ill
* skill rolls (+1 to +2)


*saves
Move
 
*All Move (Major!) = tran
true dweomers follow the basic rule 'no auto effects', but may impose severe save penalties in exchange for smaller range and/or area of effect, to the extreme of the example below "Corrupt Dweomers"
*Walk: walk, run, double move 5-ft steps, brachiate = minor = trans, conj
*Swim: lesser, greater, jet = ench, trans
*Fly: lesser, greater = necro, conj
*Hover, Vault = ench, conj
*Teleport: lesser, greater (major) = evoc, abj
*Burrow, earth glide? nobuffs!


==Current status==
==Current status==
* True Dweomers - data compilation begun
* True Dweomers - data compilation complete
* for balance pass, need to take into account the true-dweomer damage capacities of clerics, mages, druids, bard, paladins, rangers, etc.  ergo, need to develop a bare-bones 'early implementation' of TD's
 
Proposed mechanics: exactly like spells, except you only learn one true dweomer of level 10 'spontaneously'. you can take Truemagic feats to learn more, and git gud with them.
 
For what it's worth, I'm actually fine with nobody getting a TD unless they spend a feat on it.  While I don't mind the 'first one's free' approach, it isn't necessary, IMO.
 
* Require skill rolls vs DC's to cast. To cast a True Dweomer as a Full Round action requires a Bailiwick Skill Roll vs a Challenging DC for the Caster's current level. Casting as a standard action or swift action requires a Hard DC roll. Truemagic Feats give bonuses to these rolls. (see below)
* Casting a True Dweomer as a ritual takes much longer and more 'stuff' (magic circle, altar, implements and unguents, horrifying sacrifices, etc) but does not require a bailiwick skill roll.  Such Rituals typically require a day or longer.
 
Rituals is where the super-large aoe's should occur.  When cast during combat, the aoe's should be relatively 'normal-sized' (though they could still be better than spells, obviously).
 
* can a 'DC to cast' field be added to the spell template?
 
We need to talk about having a bailiwick skill check to cast TD's.  I assume this would be in addition to any to-hit rolls or saving throws the spell causes? So there would be two chances to fail to cast any TD?  Is this good game design? 
 
maybe?  i almost ditched this mechanic, but, the skill roll to cast it has been part of the TD's since the very early days, and I want to keep the 'flavor' of it. they're also scaled to be REALLY good, so I'm cool with making them feel special.  your various ideas about DC's and effects below are excellent, and we should do some or most of that.


Just because it's always been done that way, doesn't mean it's good.


I understand the desire to make them feel different (above and beyond the 'need a feat to even get one' part), but I think adding a second chance to fail is not great.  Can we discuss this tonight?
==TD Template==


sure! ...maybe.  might be a tomorrow thing.
<pre>
{{Template:TD


My initial thought is this: keep the bailiwick skill check, but make it so it doesn't affect success or failure of the spell, but rather casting time and efficacy of the spell (a bad roll could make it do half damage before to-hits or saves, for example, while a good roll might allow it to be cast as a standard or even move action with normal damage).  We may also want to revisit the secondary (to-hit/save) roll mechanics... I'm thinking TDs should ALWAYS do something, even on a miss or a successful save. 
| Level=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Level}}}
| Level|
}}</onlyinclude>


If we do keep the skill check, I'll need more info... is the CR of the check fixed based on the spell level of the TD? Or does it fluctuate based on the caster level casting it? (If the latter, why would it be harder for a high level caster to cast the same spell as a lower-level caster?)  I would recommend that the DC be fixed by spell level (this is also much easier to program into a template).
| School=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|School}}}
| School|
}}</onlyinclude>


i was going to make it fluctuate by the CL of the caster, and the justification is that as you get higher level, the true dweomer gets harder to use because its more advanced. if yu hate that notion, we can discuss.
| Components=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Components}}}
| Components|
}}</onlyinclude>


Example:
| Range=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Range}}}
* Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):
| Range|
:* Impossible DC ({{Skill-DC|Impossible|19}}) - cast as standard action
  <!-- Values: Self, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, or anything else -->
:* Hard DC ({{Skill-DC|Hard|19}}) - cast as full attack action (preserves swift action, allowing a quickened spell)
}}</onlyinclude>
:* Challenging DC ({{Skill-DC|Challenging|19}}) - full round action
:* Average DC ({{Skill-DC|Average|19}}) - full round action, mana-burning costs double?
:* Easy DC ({{Skill-DC|Easy|19}}) - full round action, cannot mana-burn?
:* Failure (Less than easy, or natural 1) - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)?


The problem I foresee with the 'skill check determines casting time' is how it interacts with Quicken and Multispell.  As written above, you could only use those feats if you make an impossible check (since they can't be used on spells with casting times greater than standard), however, in the case of Vancian casters, they would have to memorize it with the metamagic feat attached.  This doesn't seem good or fair to me.  Either we disallow Quicken and Multispell on True Dweomers (my preferred option), or we rethink how the bailiwick check works (or we get rid of the bailiwick check altogether).
| Target=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Target}}}
| Target|
}}</onlyinclude>


| Duration=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Duration}}}
| Duration|
  <!-- Values: Instant, Concentration, 1Round, Combat, Encounter, Day, Moon, Year, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>


Alternate Bailiwick Check Possibility:
| Save=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save}}}
* Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):
| Save|
:* Impossible DC ({{Skill-DC|Impossible|19}}) - any metamagic can be applied (if you have the appropriate spell slot available to do so)
  <!-- Values: None,
:* Hard DC ({{Skill-DC|Hard|19}}) - up to +5 spell levels of metamagic may be applied
      FortHalf, FortNegates, HFortHalf (for "Harmless (Fort for half damage)"), HFortNegates,
:* Challenging DC ({{Skill-DC|Challenging|19}}) - up to +3 spell levels of metamagic may be applied
      ReflHalf, ReflNegates, HReflHalf, HReflNegates,
:* Average DC ({{Skill-DC|Average|19}}) - up to +1 spell level of metamagic may be applied
      WillHalf, WillNegates, HWillHalf, HWillNegates, or anything else
:* Easy DC or lower ({{Skill-DC|Easy|19}})  - cast as normal
  -->
}}</onlyinclude>


| Save-DC=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save-DC}}}
| Save-DC|
  <!-- Values: None, Weak, Strong, Hybrid, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>


Other Option for Bailiwick Skill Check:
| Lays-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Charge}}}
* Roll is optional; if you succeed on an impossible check, you can cast the TD as a standard action.  However, if you roll an Easy result or lower (or a 1), it counts as an auto-miss/auto-save.  With 3rd feat, this risk mostly goes away, and it's just a question of whether you can get the impossible result or not.
| Lays-Charge|
* If you choose not to roll, or you get any result other than impossible or failure, TD takes a full-round action to cast.
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
Thus:
}}</onlyinclude>
:* Impossible DC ({{Skill-DC|Impossible|19}}) - standard action to cast
:* Hard DC ({{Skill-DC|Hard|19}}) - full round action to cast
:* Challenging DC ({{Skill-DC|Challenging|19}}) - full round action to cast
:* Average DC ({{Skill-DC|Average|19}}) - full round action to cast
:* Easy DC or lower ({{Skill-DC|Easy|19}})  - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)


==Examples of new True Dweomers==
| Lays-Dual-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Dual-Charge}}}
* '''10th'''  Corrupt Dweomers:
| Lays-Dual-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''11th'''
| Charge-Notes=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Charge-Notes}}}
| Charge-Notes|
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''12th'''
| SR=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|SR}}}
| SR|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''13th'''  Accursed Dweomers:
| Description =


* '''14th'''
| ShortDesc=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|ShortDesc}}}
| ShortDesc|
}}</onlyinclude>


==Examples of new Feats==
| Reviewed=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Reviewed}}}
: Truemagic Feats
| Reviewed|
:*  Truemagic Scribe    - learn 3 new true dweomers of 10th level, level 16 to take
<!-- Values: N (not reviewed) or Y (reviewed); blank defaults to "N" -->
:*  Truemagic Supplicant - learn 3 new true dweomers of 10th thru 11th levels, level 21 to take
}}</onlyinclude>
:*  Truemagic Ordinate  - learn 6 new true dweomers of 10th thru 12th levels, bailiwick skill check 1's are counted as 2's, level 21 to take
:*  Truemagic Nominate  - learn 6 new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, level 26
:*  Truemagic Heirophant  - learn 9 new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, level 31


this model has 5 TD levels, and gives 27 TD spells for 5 feats
}}
</pre>

Latest revision as of 12:40, 23 February 2022


System and Structure

New True Dweomer Damage Model
Spell Strata Burn Cost Min Level Base Dice max dice range avg Enhanced Maximized Max+Enh Perfected Absolute
1 +3 19th 1d6+6/CL 35d6+210 245-420 332.5 367.5 420 455 490 525
2 +3 21st 1d6+7/CL 35d6+245 280-455 367.5 402.5 455 490 525 560
3 +3 23rd 1d6+8/CL 35d6+280 315-490 402.5 437.5 490 525 560 595
4 +3 25th 1d6+9/CL 35d6+315 350-525 437.5 472.5 525 560 595 630
5 +3 27th 1d6+10/CL 35d6+350 385-560 472.5 507.5 560 595 630 665
6 +3 29th 1d6+11/CL 35d6+385 420-595 507.5 542.5 595 630 665 700
7 +3 31st 1d6+12/CL 35d6+420 455-630 542.5 577.5 630 665 700 735
8 +3 33rd 1d6+13/CL 35d6+455 490-665 577.5 612.5 665 700 735 770
9 +3 35+ 1d6+14/CL 35d6+490 525-700 612.5 647.5 700 735 770 805

Things that can be spell buffed

  • initiative = enchant
  • death checks (minor) = necro
  • Maneuver Offense = trans
  • Maneuver Defense = abj
  • Maneuver Damage adders (scale this HEAVY) = abj
  • Maneuver Damage bonus Dice (scale this HEAVY) = evoc
  • +to-hit (major) = ill
  • Melee to-hit = trans
  • ranged to-hit = trans
  • spell(ray) to-hit = necro


Adders to

  • All damage (major!!) = evoc
  • melee dam = trans
  • ranged dam = ench
  • ray dam = ill
  • spell dam (major!) = ill


Damage dice added to

  • All damage (major!!) = abj
  • melee dam = trans
  • ranged dam = conj
  • ray dam = ill
  • spell dam (major!) = ench


bonuses to

  • weapon Crit range = trans
  • weapon crit severity = necr
  • weapon Crit bonus dice = ench
  • weapon crit numeric adders = ill
  • skill crit range = ench
  • skill crit severity = ill
  • skill rolls (+1 to +2)

Move

  • All Move (Major!) = tran
  • Walk: walk, run, double move 5-ft steps, brachiate = minor = trans, conj
  • Swim: lesser, greater, jet = ench, trans
  • Fly: lesser, greater = necro, conj
  • Hover, Vault = ench, conj
  • Teleport: lesser, greater (major) = evoc, abj
  • Burrow, earth glide? nobuffs!

Current status

  • True Dweomers - data compilation complete


TD Template

{{Template:TD

| Level=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Level}}}
| Level|
}}</onlyinclude>

| School=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|School}}}
| School|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Components=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Components}}}
| Components|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Range=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Range}}}
| Range|
  <!-- Values: Self, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Target=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Target}}}
| Target|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Duration=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Duration}}}
| Duration|
  <!-- Values: Instant, Concentration, 1Round, Combat, Encounter, Day, Moon, Year, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Save=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save}}}
| Save|
  <!-- Values: None, 
       FortHalf, FortNegates, HFortHalf (for "Harmless (Fort for half damage)"), HFortNegates, 
       ReflHalf, ReflNegates, HReflHalf, HReflNegates, 
       WillHalf, WillNegates, HWillHalf, HWillNegates, or anything else 
   -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Save-DC=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save-DC}}}
| Save-DC|
  <!-- Values: None, Weak, Strong, Hybrid, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Lays-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Charge}}}
| Lays-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Lays-Dual-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Dual-Charge}}}
| Lays-Dual-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Charge-Notes=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Charge-Notes}}}
| Charge-Notes|
}}</onlyinclude>

| SR=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|SR}}}
| SR|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Description = 

| ShortDesc=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|ShortDesc}}}
| ShortDesc|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Reviewed=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Reviewed}}}
| Reviewed|
<!-- Values: N (not reviewed) or Y (reviewed); blank defaults to "N" -->
}}</onlyinclude>

}}
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