Talk:True Dweomers

I'll get you a template today. For the monk colors, that's easy enough to do, but I'm guessing you mean on the spell list tables, not inside each spell page, right?

er...yes?  make it look the same as spells...only COOLER

now that i think about it....would it be possible to put the colors into the TD pages?  if it's a PITA, don't worry about it

it is possible, but I'd need you to tell me where you want the color to show up.

i'm thinking a bar of color at the top of the description.  it might be useful to have the name show up in gold letters in that bar, or something, and maybe a second bar lower down that displays the DC's to cast the spell? just thinking....

point of order: do we want a different name than TDx?

hellball 10 evo, epic dispel 10 enchant, dreamscape 10 ill, unlife 10 necro, eternal freedom 10 abj, ruination 10 conju, crown of vermin 10 trans,
animus blast 11 conju, dragon strike 11 evo, damnation 11 necro, lord of nightmares 11 ill, verdigris 11 abj, geminal origin 11 ench, mass frog 11 trans,
peripetia 12 abj, greater ruination 12 conju, mummy dust 12 necro, kinetic control 12 abj, eclipse 12 evo, eidolon 12 trans, living lightning 12 ill,
pestilence 13 ill, nailed to the sky 13 evo, superb dispel 13 enchant, safe time 13 abj, dire tide 13 conju, spell worms 13 necro, raise desmesne 13 trans,
soul dominion 14 necro, momento mori 14 ench, demise unseen 14 ill, rain of fire 14 evo, vengeful gaze of god 14 abj, Let Go Of Me 14 trans, utter ruination 14 conju,

System and Structure

True Dweomer Damage Model

Spell Circle	Burn Cost	Min Level	Base Dice	max dice	range	avg	perfected
TD1	+1	21st	1d6+6/CL	31d6+186	217-372	294.5	744
TD2	+1	23rd	1d6+8/CL	31d6+248	279-434	356.5	868
TD3	+1	25th	1d6+9/CL	32d6+288	320-480	400	960
TD4	+1	27th	1d6+10/CL	32d6+320	392-512	452	1024
TD5	+1	29th	1d6+11/CL	33d6+363	399-561	480	1122
TD6	+1	31st	1d6+13/CL	33d6+429	462-627	544.5	1254
TD7	+1	33rd	1d6+15/CL	34d6+510	544-714	629	1428
TD8	+1	35th	1d6+16/CL	34d6+544	588-748	668	1496
TD9	+1	35+	1d6+17/CL	35d6+595	630-805	717.5	1610

True Dweomers are affected by metamagic feats, but note that many of the more potent feats have such a large level adjustment, they cannot be fit onto the higher level true dweomers without use of a magic wand or spell research.

• range

true Dweomers can use any range

• area of effect

true dweomers with AOE's tend to be LARGE, up to thousands of feet, miles, even leagues. note that metamagic can make even that larger.

• saves

true dweomers follow the basic rule 'no auto effects', but may impose severe save penalties in exchange for smaller range and/or area of effect, to the extreme of the example below "Corrupt Dweomers"

Current status

• True Dweomers - data compilation begun
• for balance pass, need to take into account the true-dweomer damage capacities of clerics, mages, druids, bard, paladins, rangers, etc. ergo, need to develop a bare-bones 'early implementation' of TD's

Proposed mechanics: exactly like spells, except you only learn one true dweomer of level 10 'spontaneously'. you can take Truemagic feats to learn more, and git gud with them.

For what it's worth, I'm actually fine with nobody getting a TD unless they spend a feat on it.  While I don't mind the 'first one's free' approach, it isn't necessary, IMO.

• Require skill rolls vs DC's to cast. To cast a True Dweomer as a Full Round action requires a Bailiwick Skill Roll vs a Challenging DC for the Caster's current level. Casting as a standard action or swift action requires a Hard DC roll. Truemagic Feats give bonuses to these rolls. (see below)
• Casting a True Dweomer as a ritual takes much longer and more 'stuff' (magic circle, altar, implements and unguents, horrifying sacrifices, etc) but does not require a bailiwick skill roll. Such Rituals typically require a day or longer.

Rituals is where the super-large aoe's should occur.  When cast during combat, the aoe's should be relatively 'normal-sized' (though they could still be better than spells, obviously).

• can a 'DC to cast' field be added to the spell template?

We need to talk about having a bailiwick skill check to cast TD's.  I assume this would be in addition to any to-hit rolls or saving throws the spell causes? So there would be two chances to fail to cast any TD?  Is this good game design?  

maybe?  i almost ditched this mechanic, but, the skill roll to cast it has been part of the TD's since the very early days, and I want to keep the 'flavor' of it. they're also scaled to be REALLY good, so I'm cool with making them feel special.  your various ideas about DC's and effects below are excellent, and we should do some or most of that.

Just because it's always been done that way, doesn't mean it's good.

I understand the desire to make them feel different (above and beyond the 'need a feat to even get one' part), but I think adding a second chance to fail is not great. Can we discuss this tonight?

sure! ...maybe.  might be a tomorrow thing.

My initial thought is this: keep the bailiwick skill check, but make it so it doesn't affect success or failure of the spell, but rather casting time and efficacy of the spell (a bad roll could make it do half damage before to-hits or saves, for example, while a good roll might allow it to be cast as a standard or even move action with normal damage).  We may also want to revisit the secondary (to-hit/save) roll mechanics... I'm thinking TDs should ALWAYS do something, even on a miss or a successful save.  

If we do keep the skill check, I'll need more info... is the CR of the check fixed based on the spell level of the TD? Or does it fluctuate based on the caster level casting it? (If the latter, why would it be harder for a high level caster to cast the same spell as a lower-level caster?)  I would recommend that the DC be fixed by spell level (this is also much easier to program into a template).

i was going to make it fluctuate by the CL of the caster, and the justification is that as you get higher level, the true dweomer gets harder to use because its more advanced. if yu hate that notion, we can discuss.

Example:

• Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):

• Impossible DC (52) - cast as standard action
• Hard DC (47) - cast as full attack action (preserves swift action, allowing a quickened spell)
• Challenging DC (43) - full round action
• Average DC (38) - full round action, mana-burning costs double?
• Easy DC (33) - full round action, cannot mana-burn?
• Failure (Less than easy, or natural 1) - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)?

The problem I foresee with the 'skill check determines casting time' is how it interacts with Quicken and Multispell. As written above, you could only use those feats if you make an impossible check (since they can't be used on spells with casting times greater than standard), however, in the case of Vancian casters, they would have to memorize it with the metamagic feat attached. This doesn't seem good or fair to me. Either we disallow Quicken and Multispell on True Dweomers (my preferred option), or we rethink how the bailiwick check works (or we get rid of the bailiwick check altogether).

Alternate Bailiwick Check Possibility:

• Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):

• Impossible DC (52) - any metamagic can be applied (if you have the appropriate spell slot available to do so)
• Hard DC (47) - up to +5 spell levels of metamagic may be applied
• Challenging DC (43) - up to +3 spell levels of metamagic may be applied
• Average DC (38) - up to +1 spell level of metamagic may be applied
• Easy DC or lower (33) - cast as normal

Other Option for Bailiwick Skill Check:

• Roll is optional; if you succeed on an impossible check, you can cast the TD as a standard action. However, if you roll an Easy result or lower (or a 1), it counts as an auto-miss/auto-save. With 3rd feat, this risk mostly goes away, and it's just a question of whether you can get the impossible result or not.
• If you choose not to roll, or you get any result other than impossible or failure, TD takes a full-round action to cast.

Thus:

• Impossible DC (52) - standard action to cast
• Hard DC (47) - full round action to cast
• Challenging DC (43) - full round action to cast
• Average DC (38) - full round action to cast
• Easy DC or lower (33) - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)

Examples of new True Dweomers

• 10th Corrupt Dweomers:

• 11th

• 12th

• 13th Accursed Dweomers:

• 14th

Examples of new Feats

Truemagic Feats

• Truemagic Scribe - learn 3 new true dweomers of 10th level, level 16 to take
• Truemagic Supplicant - learn 3 new true dweomers of 10th thru 11th levels, level 21 to take
• Truemagic Ordinate - learn 6 new true dweomers of 10th thru 12th levels, bailiwick skill check 1's are counted as 2's, level 21 to take
• Truemagic Nominate - learn 6 new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, level 26
• Truemagic Heirophant - learn 9 new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, level 31

this model has 5 TD levels, and gives 27 TD spells for 5 feats