Talk:Epic Path

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Discussion topic: do we really need to put a focus on multi-classing, or even dual-classing? (Monday gaming group seemed to think single-classing was by far preferable).

We should still break everything up into 5-level chunks, and still front-load the content, and make sure each tier has one major class feature to keep people engaged with the class.  Even if we scrap the multi-classing / prestige classing work for 1.0, I think the tier changes are still a good thing.  They make it much easier to digest the content of each class, IMO.  And Monday gaming group feedback has been in agreement with that.  They like the new formatting, they just weren't sold on the need for multi-classing to be so ingrained in the system.
  • courageous (1-5), intrepid (6-10), heroic (11-15), undaunted (16-20), valorous (21-25), mythic (26-30), legendary (31-35), apotheotic (36+)
  • need to redo the feat categorizations
  • need to update melee damage multiplier rules everywhere, so they occur every 5 levels instead of every 7
  • seeding: need to look at every class feature and decide if that feature is given to anyone who chooses a higher tier of the same class, or if it only gets given if they choose the tier in which it first appears. This is not as obvious as it first appears, and will end up being MUCH more than just the core 'path' mechanics (e.g. barbarian mien).
  • non-seeding: any class feature which isn't seeded upwards should be able to stand on its own. That is, its effects shouldn't rely on a lower-level version of itself to additively be useful.
  • the character class paths:
  • single class, all the way up
  • dual-classing, alternating between two classes all the way up
  • multi-classing, traditional - may only change classes on the 5's, and must pick the lowest tier of any class you choose that you haven't already taken.
  • multi-classing, modular - may only change classes on the 5's, and may pick any tier of any class as long as you are high enough level to pick that tier. (This route also allows the introduction of prestige classes -- mini classes that are 5 levels long only)


  • need to mine d20pfsrd prestige classes for good concepts to thicken up the classes
  • need to make a note of any class combinations that layer on too many stats, especially to to-hits. Example: cleric (defender of faith, castigate) and melee ranger (adds DEX) would be BAB + STR + DEX + WIS + CHA, in the right circumstances.
  • number of attacks in a full attack when someone dual- or multi-classes is highest available


art link https://www.artstation.com/ariirf
  • update remnant page to describe their 'no drop' status
  • need a note in the ability scores page (and probably the caster pages) that you can't get spells of a higher level than your class level allows, even with a high stat.
  • re-examine Cargo, in light of name conflict of field. (see Template:Monster2 and scroll to very bottom).
  • add new status conditions that inflict a circle penalty (or alter existing conditions to include it)
  • create a "circle 0" and update the various mana burning rules for it.
  • would like to go through the major numbers of the game (skills, ac, to-hits, damage, etc.) and list out each possible bonus type, their max bonus (for each type) and get a sense of our ranges.
  • Update Between Adventures section on Spell Research to clarify language about adding metamagic to a researched spell -- metamagic added /can/ increase the gross spell level above 17, just not be added as research to produce an infinitely metamagicked spell.

'Finishing' Epic Path

  • Character Class Rebalancing
  • look at partisan's Superiority ability (fast healing) -- change to a self-only instant heal as swift action, once per encounter, with scaling healing?
  • Sorcerer Bloodlines -- need a LOT of work, review, etc. At a minimum, need to clean out dead links and replace with useful content. Trim down qty of bloodlines (9?)
  • Domains -- decide if these are going to be in the game as a player mechanic (I lean toward 'no'), but if not, decide how they factor into deities
  • clean out language about domains (druids, paladins, etc.)
  • Redo / update the Damage Analysis spreadsheet for each character class - painful, yes, but a lot has changed, and we'll need this data to keep our monsters tuned to the PC's.
  • Personalized BABs, ACs, MOs/MDs, Saves
  • customized full attacks -- most classes should get some benefit from a full attack action, even at level 1 (not necessarily additional attacks, though)
  • customized attacks of opportunity -- some classes might be able to use an AOO for something other than a bonus attack - shield bash, 5-foot step, etc. Provoking is still a thing, but doesn't always provoke a simple attack.
  • some class(es) may be able to activate command word magic items as a move or swift by spending hit points
  • Update Druid Wild Shape and Animal Companion class features
  • Update Wizard Familiar and Implement class features
  • update Wizard Specialist School bonus from +1 save DC and +1 spell circle, to something equally good, but less confusing (bonus circle pushes them above level cap for circle, especially at early levels).
  • Bards might get a class feature which grants them a +4 to +9 scaling bonus to this value.
  • Wizards might get a class feature which grants them a +2 to +7 scaling bonus to this value.
  • Rogues might get a class feature which grants them a +1 to +5 scaling bonus to this value.


  • Character Sheet:
  • PDF Character Sheet (Fillable) -- yes, this will happen
  • create sample characters for each class, with planned builds up through level 5 (should be easy after character rebalance).
  • do we want to have any 'iconic' characters in our setting, that we use as examples of given classes for story and/or example purposes?


  • Monsters:
  • create at least 10 per CR. Still need CR's 19 through 40, but CR's 1 - 18 are done enough for now.


  • Setting:
  • At a minimum, we need to have some sample gods for clerics to pick from, just like we have sample vows for paladins. Multiple pantheons are okay, but I'd like some unified theory for why there are multiples
  • Cosmology of Creation page should be tailored to suit our view of the campaign setting. If we try to keep it 'generic', it will feel hollow.
  • decide how the many races factor into our default setting. Are all the races treated as normal citizens, or are some discriminated against (half-orcs, for example)? Are non-human races (in particular the oddball ones) sometimes born to human parents, or are they only products of their own purebred lineages?


Cleanup Tasks

  • remove alignment based damage and DR/ER from game (monks, paladins, some monsters, magic weapon properties, magic armor properties)
  • Finish moving the following into their respective templates:
  • alchemist discoveries
  • rogue talents
  • fighter tactics
  • Equipment pages -- finish them, clean out the stupid stuff
  • finish the Designing Skill Challenges section on the Game Master's Guide page.
  • Glossary of Terms page
  • Add definition of triggered free action
  • add some notes to the Spells page, regarding GM's adjudicating 'fluff' vs 'crunch'.
  • Specific examples are direct damage (crunch) vs. illusions (fluff).
  • Rules for bonuses from fluff which give general 'not to exceed' values.
  • plus for caster level (+1 to +3), and plus for creativity (+1 to +2).
  • need to update / create page for monster types and subtypes.
  • need to review any broken links to subtypes that we don't actually want to define (e.g. azata)
  • just generally clean up all broken links
  • racial traits: normalize what levels you (might) improve your racial abilities (10, 20, 30?), and add it into the class tables
  • create a "tactical" keyword and category that would identify feats, abilities, skill uses, etc. that are very dependent on a map, and wouldn't work well in a 'theater of the mind' game.

Bonus Systems

  • Settlements and Sieges
  • Followers / Leadership / Large-Scale War Rules
  • Auramancy / Blood Magic
  • True Dweomers
  • Prestige Classes
  • Artifacts
  • Traps (as enemy combatants)
  • Remnants

Printable Version

  • Need some cover art for a book(let)s. Open to suggestions...
  • leaning towards a 5.5" x 8" book size as our 'starter guide' for cons, ~80 half-pages, for everything: how to play, character classes, equipment, weapons, low-level magic items, status conditions, basically everything you'd need to play up to level 5-ish. Interior will not have art, unless we really want to commission some.
  • Needs to be everything you need to know to play the game (at low levels), without access the internet or the wiki.
  • shouldn't have links or other web-based 'features', and it will need a table of contents and an index.
  • Short appendix that describes some of the other features that are available in the complete game on the wiki.
  • Found some online print sites that will do this for about $10/book, so 20 of these per convention would be about $200 which doesn't seem crazy to me.
  • will give these out to anyone who plays through the module.
  • pre-generated characters on no more than 4 pages each, printed on cardstock?
  • Will give these out to anyone who played that class through the module.
  • should be designed as a good party mix, rather than just 1 of each class; assume somewhere between 5 and 8 players.
  • a module we can run in 4-ish hours that shows off the best parts of our game -- skills, character class uniqueness, dynamic and fun combats, including a 'threat' fight as the finale. Characters should probably be level 1, but I'm willing to consider up to level 3 if there's a good reason to go there.
  • needs to have good opportunities to role-play, opportunities to use skills in an interesting way, and some fun set pieces for the combat encounters.

Skill Fixes

  • Perform: performance complexity - clarify to setting the CR of the song
  • same for entertaining an audience

Siege Weapons / Settlements Notes

  • review 'breaking objects' page, in light of changes to vehicle combat and removal of abstract encounters rules
  • siege weapons - how do they work with the vehicle combat rules?
    • unless we want siege weapons to continue to be cumulative forces, though it seems like people hated all the dice rolling of the abstract encounters
    • right now, vehicles will never penetrate heavy defenses and fortifications; the target DC's are way too high, as are many of the durabilities
  • add weights for all doors and such on the 'breaking objects' page, for purposes of the Might skill.

New Feats Notes

    • Warlord - more formation dice
    • Ranger - more quarry dice
    • Ranger - better traps (better action economy, use against an occupied space)
    • Prowler - improve save DC for encroaching jolt?
    • add a feat to allow "deny saving throw" under Heal to be non-provoking, and take only a move action (no bonus to check)
    • Update/Remove any feats which apply to abstract encounters
    • Review barbarian feats again
    • Fighter - able to challenge one additional target each round (epic?)
    • agile runner - able to make a single turn during a run movement (scale w/level? require the Runner (Feat)?)

Bonus Types

There are 28 bonus types:

  • Untyped Bonus
  • Alchemical Bonus
  • Armor Bonus
  • Armor Enhancement Bonus
  • Circumstance Bonus
  • Competence Bonus
  • Deflection Bonus
  • Dodge Bonus
  • Enhancement Bonus
  • Feat Bonus
  • Inherent Bonus
  • Insight Bonus
  • Integral Bonus
  • Level Bonus
  • Luck Bonus
  • Martial Bonus
  • Material Bonus
  • Morale Bonus
  • Natural Armor Bonus
  • Profane Bonus
  • Racial Bonus
  • Resistance Bonus
  • Retraining Bonus
  • Sacred Bonus
  • Shield Bonus - removed
  • Shield Enhancement Bonus
  • Size Bonus
  • Training Bonus
  • Weapon Bonus

Based on current plan for magic redo, the following bonus types might be eliminated:

  • Alchemical Bonus
  • Competence Bonus (?) - does a bard's performance count as a "charge"?
  • Insight Bonus
  • Luck Bonus
  • Martial Bonus (?) - does a warlord's battle standard count as a "charge"?
  • Morale Bonus
  • Profane Bonus
  • Sacred Bonus

to be replaced with:

  • arcane bonus
  • divine bonus
  • vital bonus (both arcane & divine)

Possible New Character Classes

  • Physical Adept class (Fleshcrafter?) - arcane-powered melee, re-tool eidolon-style abilities as self-buffs
  • Mentat Warsage Storm Knight class - intelligence-based melee and thrown weapons user.
  • Toxotes - high damage ranged attacks, trick shots (possibly just create via new rogue talents?)
  • Galvanist
  • Seeker
  • Templar
  • Effigy (Artifact? Vestige?)
  • the character is an actual artifact, which is intelligent. The actual artifact is /somewhere/, though even the player may not know where. They have extended their consciousness into a remote effigy (moppet?) with which they interact with the world.
  • they can use their experience to augment their effigy, giving it better abilities
  • like a summoner or pet class, except that the master isn't present on the battlefield
  • Assassin
  • inflicts and spreads bleeds; can end all bleeds to deal that much damage to all enemies (even non-bleeding ones)

Interesting Links

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